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How to Lead Like a Boss (4 of 4)

How to Lead Like a Boss

(Part 4 of 4)

This is part 4 of the podcast series How to Lead Like a Boss, we discuss six different types of hazardous attitudes and how to manage them in your company.  

The 6 different hazardous attitudes are: 

  1. Anti-authority 
  2. Impulsivity 
  3. Invulnerability (aka bulletproof syndrome) 
  4. Macho attitude (aka disengagement) 
  5. Listen to your mentors 
  6. Get there-itis 

If you missed Part 1 of this series, where we discussed the sources of leadership power, you can listen to it here.
Listen to Part 2 of the series here.  We discussed the first 5 traps in working with people.
Listen to Part 3 here.  It was all about the next 5 traps in working with people.

Listen to the podcast here:

Listen in as Karla and Kevin Discuss How to Lead Like a Boss (4 of 4)

Karla Nelson: Welcome to the People Catalyst Podcast, Kevin Nothstine.

Kevin Nothstine: Thank you Karla. Happy to be here.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, glad to have you here and this is exciting. We started out doing one podcast and ended up doing a four part series because as we started looking at this, this is not only amazing information, there is a lot to it. Of course, leave it to the military to dump tons of paper cuts and then trying to figure out, okay, how do we communicate this in a way that is applicable. Then also not giving too much.

I love immersion. At the same time you also want to walk away with some bits of information that you can quickly apply in your business. I think I’ve learned just as much on this podcast as any. My goodness, it’s been fantastic. What we did is we started out in identifying the seven sources of authority.

Part one of this series was how to lead like a boss and then we moved into how to work as a team, like a boss. As we identified these traps, as Kevin said, or pitfalls in just human nature and how we respond to things and why it’s so critical and important to understand those 10 pitfalls.

Then working through those 10 pitfalls, we came about that there’s really one pitfall that is really, really critical and important in kind of a foundation for a lot of the other ones because it’s difficult if somebody has what they call a, well I changed it to bad attitude, but I actually went back to hazardous attitude. Especially after one of them I have that I’m totally happy to worry about where I want to go and what’s the itis called there Kevin?

Kevin Nothstine: It’s get there-itis.

Karla Nelson: Get there-itis. I’m like I’m happy to have get there-itis. It’s like I can see why they probably analyze the heck out of it and said, “Wait a second, bad attitude doesn’t exactly fit because I could be completely happy with this hazardous attitude of get there-itis.” It’s not necessarily just about attitude, but it really is about opening up your mind to be taught and to learn.

We’re going to dive deep into some of these anecdotes or how you solve, I love anecdotes. Of course, that’s what the military uses instead of solutions. Solutions to these hazardous attitudes that we talked about.

I’m not sure if everybody’s listened To the previous three podcasts, so I will take a moment to introduce our guest here today. Kevin Nothstine spent 21 years of active duty as an officer in the Air Force. He currently spends some of his time as a special ops air crew instructor teaching the same mission in an aircraft that he flew in Afghanistan and Iraq and my goodness, you did what, over a hundred combat missions there?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, around there.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Oh, that’s all, yeah. Basically this mission is to find the bad guys and tell the good guys where they are. So if you think about the Bin Laden raids, there’s something called a stack, and this particular aircraft, the MC-12 is that the top of the stack and then there could be a whole different blend of aircraft all the way down to the boots on the ground. Kevin is also one of the cofounders of the People Catalyst and he is a prover shaker.

Kevin Nothstine: Prover Shaker as opposed to Karla, the host of the People Catalysts Podcast, who is an uber mover who likes to move things forward and make them happen.

Karla Nelson: I get a little shaker, I’m a shaker.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, mover shaker. Yeah.

Karla Nelson: Every once in a while I come up with a good idea, but we’ve got Allen on the team. So it’s normally just minimizing his crazy ideas. Almost always the best ideas. Yeah.

Welcome to the show. We’re excited about this today because we’re going to talk about how to solve these, what they call hazardous attitudes in this crew resource management training. If you want to give us a little bit of a context around that, Kevin, we’ll start there and then we’ll roll right into these solutions to make sure that you don’t get into these areas as leaders.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, and podcasts in this series number two and number three, we actually broke it down. We had 10 different traps or these things that can cause problems in how you operate. And just real quickly, we talked about excessive professional courtesy. We talked about the halo effect, haster syndrome, hidden agenda.

Karla Nelson: Oh yeah.

Kevin Nothstine: All of these.

Karla Nelson: These are not my new names. I gave new names to all these. They were actually in English.

Kevin Nothstine: And multiple ones there. You can go back and listen to two and three without getting in any detail. One of the big ones, number nine of those 10, was hazardous attitudes, or bad attitudes, or hazardous attitudes. It’s having the wrong mindset about things because your attitude determines how far you can go.

We wanted to dive a little deeper into this because there are some rough attitudes that you can have, but there are solutions to those attitudes as well. If you recognize them in yourself and the parts that can cause some issues and the negative aspects, there’s ways to look at them a little bit differently to try and overcome them for you or for your team members. It’ll work with your team to come up with how to fix these attitudes. We can all think of it and you can always say, “Oh, he’s got a bad attitude,” but we actually give names to some of those bad attitudes.

Karla Nelson: You know what’s kind of interesting, I didn’t think about before, doesn’t the plane when you fly, I guess I’ve been hanging around with you long enough that I’ve learned enough about, I would never want to actually… You would not want me to fly the aircraft, but I’ve learned a lot. Isn’t there a term for the attitude of the plane even?

Kevin Nothstine: It’s a different definition of attitude.

Karla Nelson: Of course but isn’t it?

Kevin Nothstine: But you do have some planes that… You know what? You’re kind of right about that. I fly a fleet of multiple planes and sometimes the planes, they don’t fly right and some of them fly a little bit more crooked than some of the others do.

Karla Nelson: You don’t actually think about that, but that is kind of interesting. Like the attitude of the plane and well it made me think about it because your attitude determines how far you go. It’s just so foundational and there’s so many very similar things, not only in the foundation but then also the training that goes into that. Both on you learn how to fly aircraft, but then also running companies and being a leader. There’s so much about what the military teaches and their training is so extensive. Companies should really pay attention to that.

Kevin Nothstine: Karla, that really does bring up an entirely different subject that could be a whole different podcast that we have one day. The plane is a tool. It’s a tool of what you use to be able to accomplish the mission. As you said in the introduction there, the mission that we do in the plane that I instructed in, the MC-12, our mission is to find the bad guys and tell the good guys are where they are and protect the good guys and to make things happen in that realm.

The aircraft, the MC-12, is a tool and just like any other tool, you have to know… one, you have to have the right tool for the job and two, you have to know how to use that tool. Sometimes if you think of a tool chest, you have a couple of different screwdrivers that are in there and you could have one screwdriver that it’s kind of bent or has a little problem with that and when you use that screwdriver, you’ve got to know how to use that tool effectively.

Karla Nelson: That’s so funny. That actually makes me think about the WHO-DO method, Mover Shaker Prover Maker. They all excel in certain things and not in another thing. So Allen always tells a really funny story. He loves baseball, he loves it so much, and he’s done a ton of work in that realm, but they put him in the finance area of it and it was like, are you serious? Like what are you? “Oh well, there’s this space and you love baseball, right?” I mean it’s like you have to understand how a shaker excels, a mover excels, a prover excels, and a maker excels so that you can utilize that tool or even the one are that we don’t talk about very often because 100% of the work is made for one percent of the population that are imbalanced across all four.

It’s like your utility infielder, right? They’re not super awesome at first base, but when that guy gets hurt, you can put that guy in and so understanding is, and of course we don’t want to identify people just as tools, but in business when the object of the exercise is to get something done, it’s critical that you understand your team or as you say, crew, right? And the mission that you fly. It’s understanding where you can put them in so that they’re going to excel to the maximum or understand where they might be miscast and you’re asking them to do something that they’re really, really stinky at.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. And your examples is, you’re exactly right when you’re talking about your role versus your passion. You know, you can be passionate about baseball, but if you’re passionate about baseball and you love being a pitcher and now all of a sudden we have you playing shortstop, your role is completely miscast even though you’re passionate about baseball.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. So I like that. I like that, thinking about what the attitude is and how that rolls into those different parallels. So, okay, so we’ll go ahead and let’s get started. How many of these solutions or anecdotes as the Air Force would say?

Kevin Nothstine: We’re going to go through six different hazardous attitudes and we did have the 10 different traps and inside of the 10 traps we have hazardous attitude is one trap. And there’s, it’s just layers upon layers of stuff.

Karla Nelson: It’s amazing guys, you guys, if you ever want, it’s the best training. They’ve obviously deduced this, the provers have eaten it alive and made it to the, you know, it’s awesome. It’s just really interesting because the language is all, it’s like the longer you can make the word, the better.

Kevin Nothstine: They’re trying to be as precise as possible.

Karla Nelson: Yes, there you go. See, the prover. So the prover says precise as possible, which by the way, I have to agree. When I said no bad attitude, it’s like you could be totally happy being the macho person. You totally could, or all those other ones that we went through before so you can be happy, so it’s not necessarily that it’s a bad attitude. It’s a hazardous. It could contaminate the team. Right?

Kevin Nothstine: What you’re talking about is leadership is both an art and a science, and the art is, “Oh, it feels right and we can do it this way and paint it that way and put these things together,” and they’re trying to boil it down to a science because you’re trying to take a multitude of individuals and teach them. If they’re not an artist in this area, we’re trying to give them the tools available, so to do that they’re trying to boil it down to a science and that’s why we have 10 different traps and one trap, we have six different.

Karla Nelson: I love that though because we’re a process, process, process, process, process, process, focus. 94% of failures, process failure, not people failure.

Kevin Nothstine: You know what? That really does bring up the first of these hazardous attitudes because you can have certain people and the first that hazardous attitude, the first one is anti-authority. Believe it or not, there can be people in the military and everywhere else even though they try to beat it out of you in basic training and everywhere else, you can have an anti-authority attitude and to put it in a nutshell, anti-authority is, “Well don’t tell me how to do it,” and as you might imagine, a few air crew or pilots might have a little bit of that anti-authority

Karla Nelson: Dun dun dun dun, pilots. No. No.

Kevin Nothstine: I actually had one pilot that I was trying to train and he was a pretty experienced individual and the instructor that worked with him before identified that he had not been doing some of his work on his checklist of knowing the checklist as well as he needed to. And so I had that piece of information going into a training session with him and it was specifically on checklist procedures. Well, this individual came to me and I very quickly identified, yeah, he hasn’t done it enough on it. And I was telling him, “Okay, you need to know the checklist to this level of detail. You need to have this part of the checklist memorized. You need to do it this way.” Well, that didn’t jive with what he wanted to do and he just had a very anti-authority attitude about going into this. And it ended up being a very confrontational training session and I don’t think the student got a lot out of it as a result.

Karla Nelson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Well, of course, yeah. Now you’re closing yourself off and it’s why we wanted to dive deepest on the solutions to this because if you’re starting out that way, you are a threat to yourself and everyone else. If you have a hazardous attitude, you’re contaminating the team basically.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. This particular individual, he actually contaminated a team. That was about two years ago, that we had this incident with him. Well, his anti-authority attitude continued, and let’s just say it has led to not the best situation and he’s no longer a part of that team.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. And that can happen, right? So because we all have to follow processes and procedures, especially in the military. My goodness, you guys are the father. But outside of Edwards Deming, the military would be definitely the next place that there’s a process for everything and a procedure for everything, right.

Kevin Nothstine: And of course their antidote to this hazardous attitude, would they like to teach is follow the rules. They’re usually right.

Karla Nelson: That’s what they call it the rules.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. It should be follow your procedures. It’s not just rules. There’s a whole bunch of items that are not rules.

Karla Nelson: Yep. Well, we love process and procedures. I’ve already said 94% of failures, process failure, not people failure. Edwards Deming, he’s considered the father of manufacturing. I quote him all time because it’s so, so critical in business to have a process, a process by which you identify the decisions, what are we going to do, ideation, implementation, how are we going to do it?

And it reminds me of a friend of mine who, gosh, I’ve known for a very long time and most of you guys would probably know the name of the company that he sold a couple of years ago and we had the fortunate opportunity of doing his financing way back in the day when I was in the world of finance and he was a small gig set up at the time and had a couple of retail stores and when we walked in to do the financing, he pulled out the largest set of instructional manuals I probably have ever heard.

Now guys, this was before you could do it digitally and have it in the cloud and do all this stuff. So it literally was like, clunk. I remember looking at it and my associate at the time looked at it and said, “Oh, this guy is going to be really successful because he has got every process and procedure written down in how he was growing this,” and he ended up selling his company I think somewhere around $640 million. So, and this is a retail small chain that ended up going, I don’t even know, I don’t know if it was international, but it was a huge brand and so you know, it’s important. Process and procedures are absolutely critical.

Kevin Nothstine: Now, those processes and procedures and not only having them but training people to follow them.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Oh, training. Imagine that.

Kevin Nothstine: Which brings up the, I’m sorry, go ahead. What were you going to say?

Karla Nelson: I was just saying and the military is the best at it because they not only have process, they probably overkill, right? They kind of go the other way sometimes probably where innovation is squashed out, but the military is awesome about this because everybody shows up and they train and they train and they train. Right? And so we can’t spend 100% of the day training. Right? We have to balance that out with doing other things, but explaining the process and procedures and then put, I hate to say a process around the process, but that’s what the WHO-DO method actually is because contextually you can apply it in any other area, right? So just, yeah, it’s not only critical but then using contextually over that, right, how you run that process and procedures. Not only communicating it like you said, Kevin, but communicating in a way that the team builds the process and the procedure together as well, if you have to start at ground zero.

In the military, I’m going to guess you get told a lot of stuff, especially after a lot of the bugs had been worked out. In corporate America, it’s a little bit different in the sense that if everybody can put their fingerprint on the process, if it’s starting at ground zero or look at it because everybody looks at processes and procedures differently, right? Shakers want to break the rules. Movers want to interpret the rules. Provers want to make the rules and makers want to follow the rules. So those were rules. That’s exactly what the anecdote just said. Follow the rules, they’re usually right. Well guess what? You got four sets of dang people that follow the rules differently.

Kevin Nothstine: And those rules can mature over time. You talked about in the military you run things through a process. I’ve got a great story that’s going to go with the next one that talks about how we used to do things that we’ve learned from and gotten a little better at how we do them now.

Karla Nelson: Awesome. Go ahead and lead us through. Ready to go.

Kevin Nothstine: Before we tell this story.

Karla Nelson: I got get there-itis. Come on.

Kevin Nothstine: Before we go into the story, the first one, well the hazardous attitude here is impulsivity. Do something quickly. Okay. Ah, it’s the knee jerk reaction. It’s this happened. I need to do this. Oh, this happened, boom, I’m going to do this and jump right into it without doing a good analysis of understanding exactly what’s going on. So that’s a hazardous attitude.

And the story on this and it’s actually not my story, this is a story from my dad. My dad was a flight engineer on T-29s so this is a story from a long time ago. The plane he was flying had two engines and he was a flight engineer so he’s sitting between the two pilots and at the time in the Air Force, the way they would train for an engine failure is the instructor pilot would actually shut down the engine and then it would go through the procedures. Okay. How do you deal with this engine that you just lost?

Well, the first step was to pull what’s called the T handle. You’d reach up high and you’d pull this T handle and it would shut down the engine. Well, nowadays we’re a lot better and before you pull that, you would verify with the other person that in the plane that, “I’m going to move this T handle. Yes, the left engine failed. I have the left one. I’m going to pull that T handle and shut it down.”

Well, when my dad was flying, they had not worked through those processes yet and the pilot would just reach up and grab the T handle and pull it. So he’s in the plane. The instructor pilot shut down the left engine and his student goes, “Okay, first step is to pull the T handle for that engine.” And he reached up and grabbed the wrong handle.

Karla Nelson: That would be bad.

Kevin Nothstine: He grabbed the right handle instead of the left one.

Karla Nelson: No way, he shut down the other engine?

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. So now this two engine plane has both engines shut down.

Karla Nelson: So now it’s not like in the previous glider, right? Because remember the other guy in the other example.

Kevin Nothstine: In the other example, he just shut off the electronics and the planes still flew. This particular one my dad was on.

Karla Nelson: So now you’re a glider at however far in the air.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. Now they’re able to restart the engines and able to recover.

Karla Nelson: Thank goodness.

Kevin Nothstine: But it was that impulsivity. Somebody just said, “You know what? I know what to do to respond to this emergency situation. I’m just going to do it without any analysis and just jump right in with both feet.”

Karla Nelson: Yeah. You might want to read what side of the aircraft to a shutdown first to be able to restart that one and not shut down the other one. But yeah, exactly, and this happens in business a lot.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. In flying, we say that the antidote or the solution to that is no fast hands or not so fast. Think first.

Yes. And the process can help you with this guys, you’re provers, you’re provers, you’re provers. When you run the process, ensuring that you know we need you all, we need you at different times. And there is a previous podcast, Alan and I actually go through ideation and implementation, the exact steps because of the same players, it’s a different process and understand that your provers can help you so much in thinking through it.

Now when you’re flying an aircraft, obviously you have to move super fast. In business, we’ve got a little bit more time when we’re making decisions. But when you run the process, having your provers be a part of the process, they can help you think this through. I would even say the shakers as well can help a lot of times when for them to overcome the obstacles, the provers are really great at bringing up and then the shakers really great at innovative ways to overcome those. So I love the think first. The only problem is that’s only the really the provers and the shakers that naturally will fall back on thinking versus doing, right? So, but leverage those other people in the process so that you’re thinking through it and before you take action.

Kevin Nothstine: Before you turn your aircraft into a glider.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, exactly.

Kevin Nothstine: All right. Here’s the next one. The next hazardous attitude on ones is, okay. Well, the official term for this in Air Force speak is invulnerability. Okay.

Karla Nelson: What? I guess vulnerable, not vulnerable.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. Invulnerable.

Karla Nelson: I’m going to rename this bulletproof.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. Yep, yep.

Karla Nelson: Superman syndrome.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. It can’t happen to me. Yeah, this can happen to other people. It won’t happen to me. I am bulletproof. Okay. And a good one on this, you may have heard of,this is a, heck, it was probably 15, 20 years ago now, had a B-52, an air crew flying a B-52 for an air show up in a Washington state and the pilot wanted to put on a great air show and well he didn’t think it would happen to him that the plane could actually mess up. Well, he pushed the plane well beyond its limits and he was known for this. He was known for having this attitude to the point that the leadership would not let anybody else fly with him except the highest people.

Karla Nelson: I wouldn’t want to fly with him. Geez. It’s kind of like a little far in the sky to have this invulnerability or bulletproof syndrome.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. And he took a B-52, a very large airplane that the maximum you’re allowed or the maximum bank angle is 60 degrees and bringing it way up and that’s actually pretty high. They usually never even reach that. But for the air show, he brought it up to 90 degrees.

If you know anything about flying or if you’ve seen a plane, there’s no lift, there’s nothing keeping you in the sky at 90 degrees. Well, it was a rather tragic result that when he did this thinking, “Oh, it wouldn’t happen to me,” well, physics doesn’t care what you think. Physics is physics and the plane fell out of the sky and it destroyed the aircraft and the four people inside of it.

Karla Nelson: Gosh, I’m not even a pilot and would realize, no, you might like the wings kind of are important. If you bring it to a 90 degree angle, there’s nothing underneath of you. That’s crazy. How sad. So yes, bulletproof syndrome, not good.

Kevin Nothstine: And the edit on that is to realize, ah, it could happen to me. You know, what you think is the most tragic thing, that just very well could happen.

Karla Nelson: Well, the other thing that makes me think about is, especially on innovation, businesses especially, it’s easy to talk about today because there’s so many examples of it, but it reminds me of GM and Chrysler. So GM actually created the minivan. Most people don’t know that, but they did not want to roll the minivan out into the market in fear that it would take over their station wagon market, right? And yeah. Yeah. And so Chrysler obtained the intellectual property, rolled out the minivan and everybody, I mean how many minivans do you see on the streets today, right?

And then as soon as the SUV came out, when was the last time you saw a station wagon? Right. It just decimated the station wagon business. But yet they don’t have the minivan business. I’m sure they’ve come out with their own version of it.

Kevin Nothstine: Of course, they didn’t think it could happen to them. They didn’t think that they would fail.

Karla Nelson: Not only that, you would still crush the IP. Why would you sell it off? Kodak did the same thing. Right? They created the digital camera, but in fear that it would compete with their other products they sold it. Why would you sell it? Yeah. Now at least don’t sell it to somebody else, but it could never happen to them because they’re the big guys on the block. So, yeah. Okay, go ahead, Kevin.

Kevin Nothstine: The same thing with vacuum cleaners. Forever, they wanted to stick with vacuum cleaners and they wanted to sell vacuum cleaner bags. So all the big names, Hoover and the others refused to switch over. Then Dyson came in and had a bagless vacuum cleaner.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. And Dyson’s the best. And they made it swivel for goodness sakes, because you couldn’t with the bag, right?

Kevin Nothstine: The other companies didn’t think they’d be able to fail, but lo and behold, Dyson took over major market share.

Karla Nelson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Awesome. All right, what’s the next one?

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, next one. That’s invulnerability. It can’t happen to me. Well, the next one is kind of, it’s the other side of the same coin a bit and that’s the macho attitude. That’s the, “I can do it, dump it on. I will make it happen. I am full on capable of doing this with no problem at all.”

And just to quick little story on that, I was flying with a guy, he was a CEO of a very successful company and he’s a great guy, really good dude. But what made him a very successful CEO did not transfer well into the cockpit and to fly in a plane. He owned his own plane and he was flying it and I was flying with him and we’re flying into a runway at night in the weather and he had the autopilot coupled up and was letting it apply and I told him early, said, “Hey, you probably want to disengage the autopilot early and just to work with your hand flying and get back to flying the plane, playing yourself and being comfortable with it.” And he’s like, “No, I can take it. I can take it later on. I’ll be no problem at all and I will be able to fly the plane with no problem.”

Well he let the autopilot on for a long time and then as soon as he kicked the autopilot off and started hand flying, well, it was very tight tolerances and he didn’t stay within those tolerances and I ended up taking the plane from him. We had to go around to keep the aircraft in a safe situation and come back and do the approach again.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. That’s why I would be a horrible pilot, although with the right instruction and training. All right. Okay, so what’s the next one?

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. The next one and the big correction to macho is instead of, I can do it, a sometimes taking chances can be foolish or a better way to put that, listen to your mentors.

Karla Nelson: And trainers. Listen to your trainers. Go back to your training, right? The process. Go back to the process. You always use the process.

Kevin Nothstine: Now if you do that, do some other things too much, you know what? You can end up with the next big, bad attitude, which is resignation. Resignation is, you know what’s the use? Nothing’s working. This isn’t going to work well. This is Eeyore.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, I’m going to call this engagement because employee engagement, right? Or disengagement. We’re going to write the whole handbook over again.

Kevin Nothstine: And so if you or obviously not you, our podcast audience is a lot better and of course they would never be disengaged, but other people might be disengaged.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. That’s why our number one post always have to do with how much it costs for turnover and 70% of people hate their jobs in the US, 89% internationally. There are tons of people out there doing things every day that they don’t like. And so we talked about this earlier, is the recent Gallup study and how many people not only are actively disengaged, but then just disengaged. So if you add those two groups together, it’s 53% were disengaged. 13 actively disengaged. This means they will do anything to ruin what it is that you are up to. So when 66% of your workforce is disengaged, what do you think that does to a business?

And on top of that, I think what we missed in the scenario is everybody disengages for different reasons. You know, shakers disengage if it’s not their idea, movers disengage because I’ve got another project and something to do anyway and nothing ever comes of these meetings. Provers disengage because there’s too much wrong with it and makers disengage because they need to get back to their desk and do some real work. So we have to approach disengagement from different aspects.

When you’re using a process and letting them shine in the piece of the work that they do, again, both in ideation, what are we going to do? Implementation, how are we going to do it? Then it’s an easier way to understand why people disengage.

I had before learning the process, many times would be in a meeting, if I was not running the meeting, taking the notes, telling everybody what to do after the meeting, coordinating it, I just sat back and didn’t say a word. I had other things that I wanted to do, right, and that’s how a mover disengages and I think we don’t necessarily take that into consideration of you can’t just tell somebody, engage, engage, engage. I mean it’s just ridiculous. You can’t bring in the speaker to speak for an hour and tell people how to be engaged. It doesn’t make any sense when the object of the exercise is to get something done. So they obviously have to do the part of the work that they excel at, right?

Kevin Nothstine: And you know something that the WHO-DO process really teaches is we need everybody just not at the same time. So when do I really want you engaged? At the right time in the project. So as a leader in a different, as you go through the process, it’s getting the right people with that engagement.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Awesome. Love it. Love this one. That’s a great one. And finally.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay the last one. Get there-itis.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. I got something to do. I think I’m going to have to end the podcast now.

Kevin Nothstine: Sounds like a hidden agenda going on there.

Karla Nelson: That’s a good one. And that’s actually funny because it’s one of the 10 that we went through as far as the traps. Yeah.

Kevin Nothstine: The get there-itis is, in flying, it’s like I must get there tonight. I just need to get to this destination. We want to make it happen and get on the ground or if you’d ever done a long road trip, I have got to get to grandma’s house now or that kind of item. And it can lead to having, for whatever reason you need to get there.

We actually had a time. I was in Guam, we had two C-130s in Guam and we had that day we were going to fly from Guam to the Philippines and back across the ocean. Well my crew, we all, we were staying in the same hotel as the other crew. We checked out of the hotel, we packed all our bags, we had all of our bags and we’re sitting there in the lobby of the hotel about to catch the bus to where the planes were.

Karla Nelson: Even though you’re going back to Guam?

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. We’re coming right back to the same hotel at the same place that night. And the other crew was looking at us and they’re like, “Well, why are you guys doing this?” And we said, “Because we’re flying a C-130 that was built in the early 1960s to another location and shutting down the engines. So just in case, we’re going to do it,” and they’re like, “Yeah, okay, whatever.”

Well, both planes flew to the Philippines with no problem. Well, guess what? The other plane, lo and behold, their plane broke. They had some issues with the plane and they were not able to take off. Our plane, we had no problem. We went back and we had to check back into the hotel and everything, but that plane that broke, as they were going through their decision making process, it could very, very easily saying, we want to get back to Guam because that’s where the hotel were checked into. That’s where all of our clothes are.

Karla Nelson: That’s where our dinner is.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. And all of that. And so they could very easily have some get there-itis that could lead to making bad decisions. They were willing to accept things on the plane and push it. Now they didn’t. They maintained the professionalism, but I know they really did want to get home.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Being aware of that. Super important. That reminds me of a client of ours, and this happens frequently. So you’ve got your early adopters, your movers and shakers, you got your later adopters, your provers and your makers, right? And which one do you think probably has get there-itis the most? Probably the doers, I would say. But even shakers, like shakers and movers get together and then it’s like, woohoo, here’s my idea. Yay, that’s a great idea. Let’s do that. Ooh.

And so what can happen is this particular company ended up spending a lot of money and investing it into technology and it was a great idea. It actually was a good idea. And the problem was they didn’t think about people actually using the technology that they put millions of bucks into. And so now all of a sudden you just invested all this money, but you didn’t figure out all the things that could go wrong about how to get your return on investment, because the way this company works for every user they’re already paying for and they’re giving it to them to a mass, mass reduced amount, right? It’s not like they wanted a profit margin but they didn’t want to invest so much money that it was like sink in the company and putting it in the red and they didn’t think about it. So we were actually brought in to help that process.

And when you think about technology, this happens frequently. And this was seven different ones integrated with each other by the way. So how do you break that process down into its simplest form in order to then have somebody actually use it? I mean all of that stuff you have to run through the process before you make the decision. I think some, get there-itis, we need technology, we need to go, we need this in place. And they did need all of it. And the problem is when you start watching that video on the first technology, you’re excited about three minutes into it, five minutes, you’re like, oh, and then 30 minutes into going through all the features and benefits when you don’t even need all of them, you need about 20% and not breaking any of that down. And they had already been trying to kind of shove this down everybody’s throats for a year and they weren’t swallowing. So you have to think through that process and get there-itis can really get you in trouble when you make a decision without engaging all different core natures of work.

Ask me how I know it, because get theire-itis is my definitely go to on the hazardous attitudes and I said that instead of bad attitude again because I’m happy with get there-itis. What happens is then you hit a wall you can make and you’re not taking everybody with you, right? So the object of the exercise in leadership and working with a team is we all go together and as Kevin said, we need you all just at different times. It’s absolutely critical and so well, awesome.

Okay, so anti-authority, don’t tell me what to do. Impulsivity, do something really fast. Invulnerability, which I renamed bulletproof syndrome. It can’t happen to me. Macho, which is dun, dun, dun, dun, I can do it myself. Resignation, which I changed the name to disengaged. We call it employee engagement frequently and then get there-itis. Awesome. Those are definitely six things to take a look at to ensure that you have a healthy way of communicating not only internally with yourself but externally with your team and also helping your other team members identify those hazardous attitudes that can really get you into some trouble.

So any last words, Kevin, before we sign up off for the podcast?

Kevin Nothstine: It’s been a great series. I’ve really enjoyed going through this and working through it. You know, we started off this whole series of four of talking about what your sources of authority are in leading a team and then we talked about the 10 different traps that can mess up with people and we did a deep dive into one of those traps of those bad attitudes, so or hazardous attitudes. So overall, I think it was a great series and a lot of lessons to learn and I’m glad we reviewed it. It helps me to be a better leader and to work with our teams better as well.

Karla Nelson: Fantastic. Well, I’ve enjoyed it. It’s definitely been an amazing leadership series. And until next time, remember we need you all, but we need you at different times.

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How to Lead Like a Boss (3 of 4)

How to Lead Like a Boss (Part 3 of 4)

How to Lead Like a Boss

(Part 3 of 4)

How to Lead Like a Boss (Part 3 of 4)

In part three of this series of How to Lead Like a Boss, we discuss how to work as a team like a boss. There are 10 “traps” in working with people and we discuss the last 5 this week!

If you missed Part 1 of this series, where we discussed the sources of leadership power, you can listen to it here.
Listen to Part 2 of the series here, where we discussed the first 5 traps in working with people.
In Part 4 we discuss 6 Hazardous Attitudes and how to manage them.

The 10 traps in working with people:

  1. Excessive Professional Courtesy
  2. Halo Effect
  3. Passenger Syndrome
  4. Hidden Agenda
  5. Accommodation Syndrome
  6. The Accident Zone Model
  7. Strength Of An Idea
  8. WHO-DO Method
  9. Hazardous Attitudes
  10. Error Chain

Listen to the podcast here:

Listen in as Karla and Kevin Discuss How to Lead Like a Boss (3 of 4)

Karla Nelson: And welcome to the People Catalysts Podcast, Mr. Kevin Nothstine.

Kevin Nothstine: Hello, hello.

Karla Nelson: Hello sir, how are you today?

Kevin Nothstine: I’m enjoying life-

Karla Nelson: Pretty fantastic. I’m really enjoyed this podcast series. So just to give all of our listeners a little bit of a background, we decided to have Kevin on the podcast to talk about the seven sources of authority and how to lead like a boss. We had so much fun, we decided to add on a couple of other podcasts and this is now a four part series. And the part two we just went through was, how to work as a team like a boss. And for today we are going to discuss and finish up. That was a total of 10 steps, so we had five more to go. We did five on the last podcast because it’s hard to take in all 10 in just a 25 minute session where we try to keep our podcasts app so they’re digestible from your drive, from home to work or wherever you’re headed.

So we’re going to finish up, how to work as a team, like a boss. And if you haven’t heard the previous two podcasts, just to let you know a little bit about Kevin Nothstine. He was an Officer in the Air Force for 21 years, he was active duty. He currently still teaches his special ops groups and aircrew how to fly the same mission that he flew in Afghanistan and Iraq. And basically these missions are how to find bad guys and tell the good guys where they are. So if you think about the bin Laden raids, they’re this thing called the stack and the MC-12 the particular plane that Kevin, instructs and teaches others on is at that top of the stack. He is also one of the co-founders and a master trainer of the People Catalysts. And so he lastly is a prover shaker, so he does have a secondary shaker but he leads with his prover. So thanks so much for your time today in joining us on the show.

Kevin Nothstine: It’s my pleasure. I love to teach and I greatly appreciate the opportunity to do that here on-

Karla Nelson: Awesome. Okay, let’s jump right into it. We already went through the first five. Did you want to go through the first five? Just a little bit of an overview just to give those who might not have listened to that podcast. We won’t go into depth but maybe just identify them and sum them up really quickly. If you want to go listen to the previous podcast, you can find it right there on the website and take it away, Kevin.

Kevin Nothstine: All right, thank you much. That’s as good idea to put it in some context. Now the big picture on what these are the special ops community calls this is, human factors traps and these are the traps that differently states if somebody can-

Karla Nelson: And we did this in on the other podcast, English. We came up with a couple of different names, I can’t remember what they were.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. These traps they’re mistakes that people can make. Its common mistakes that can lead to an unhealthy team. As Karla said, there’s 10 different ones and in the previous podcast we talked about those first five, they were excessive professional courtesy, which is basically saying, “That’s the boss and he said so therefore I’m not willing to challenge the boss.” And nobody’s willing to tell the emperor that he’s not wearing any clothes. That’s just the classic tale there. The next one was a halo effect and that was, “This person was outstanding over at this other position. So obviously he’s going to do a good job in whatever new position we put them in.” And well that doesn’t always happen the way that you hope it would. The third one then was the passenger’s syndrome or the copepod syndrome.

And that’s where somebody else has got it. Somebody else is doing a great job and if they are, it’s really easy just to sit back and coast and not be fully engaged with your job. And not have that employee engagement just because you have somebody else that is running with the ball. So that was the third one. The fourth one was the hidden agenda, and that hidden agenda is saying, “I’ve got something else in my mind, a reason when I’m making the decisions based on.” And it may not lead to the best decisions. You’re sitting there in the meeting and you’ve got your kid’s recital that you want to get to. So you’re willing to accept whatever they say just to get out of the meetings. So you can go watch your daughter go play the piano or something like that.

And then the last one is the accommodation syndrome and that’s what, “It’s really high risk business for us to go and do whatever event.” Buy a new building or buy a new business or something like that. And the first time you do it you’re like, “Wow, this is a lot of risk involved here.” And then it works. Okay, “Let’s do it again, let’s do it again.” And each iteration, each time you go and do that same thing, it’s just as risky but you don’t… You’re desensitized to how much risk happens on it over time. So we had good examples of those in the first podcast, so that’s the accommodation syndrome. That’s our first-

Karla Nelson: Awesome let’s jump right into number six.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, number six. And this one… Where that last one we just talked about the accommodation syndrome. That’s more of a strategic, that’s a long range and over time, “We’ve done it so many times and over the last couple of years we’ve done this. It could never bite us in the butt.” Okay, well this next one is called the accident zone model. And this is a little more tactical. This is more… “Okay, I’ve got this meeting that’s been going on, I don’t have any hidden agenda, so I’m willing to be in this meeting for the long haul.” But after two to three hours of being in this meeting. Well, fatigue starts to set in and you get tired-

Karla Nelson: Everyone’s been in that meeting.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. Our co-founder Alan, likes to put it, set meeting and where it’s like, “It’s 12 o’clock, it’s one o’clock, it’s two o’clock, it’s three o’clock, it’s three o’clock, it’s three o’clock.” And the clock doesn’t seem to move when you’re longer into the meeting. Well, when you get to that phase in flying airplanes after you’ve been flying a plane for three, four or five sometimes seven and nine hours or… Some of my friends and flown missions for 24 hours in the same. But when you’re in that meeting or you’re in that mission or you’re in the zone for that long, you’re going to get tired and you could very easily make mistakes as you grow into that-

Karla Nelson: Yeah. What that reminds me of is, are we going to come up with a different name for the accident zone model. It’s how fatigue and stress can make you make mistakes, there we go. We’ll, have to send that one into the air force. It reminds me of the story-

Kevin Nothstine: Spoken like a true prover.

Karla Nelson: It reminds me of the story that we went into… And we just love this story because it’s representative of every other stink in meeting everyone has been in and knows. Everyone always laughs when we teach and train this piece because they I believe they can’t change it so they just deal with it, right? And this is the meeting that Allen was the lead on and basically hired in an innovation meeting to sit there, be quiet and see what happens. And so that happened and it was like two and a half hours of ridiculousness and we always say it’s like a skeet shoot, right? Anybody ever seen skeet? Idea, bang, idea, bang, idea, bang, idea, bang. Just going back and forth and back and forth and Allen’s just sitting here, he’s dying in this meeting and all he’s doing is getting paid to be there and listen to it.

And at the end of the meeting, the gentleman who hired us said, “Okay, so what’s the report?” In his report, that’s easy. He says, “37 to 36.” And the guy looks at Allen like, “Are you nuts? What are you talking about? 37 to 36, what report is that?” He goes, “There was 37 ideas, 36 of them got shut down, and everybody was so fatigued and tired from being in that meeting that they picked the most mediocre last idea that came up, so that they could escape from the meeting.”

Kevin Nothstine: Exactly. They were deep into the accident zone.

Karla Nelson: Yes.

Kevin Nothstine: And you think that, that idea actually had any chance of success.

Karla Nelson: And the other thing is, it’s interesting because when you think of it as flying an aircraft that… It’s super, you’re going to crash and you could kill everybody and yourself. But you think about that in corporate America and it affects even your relationships with other people. It affects doing those types of things affects, how people show up in a meeting rolling their eyes. Are they engaged? Are they not? I mean, that piece, if you’re not aware of all of those different stimulus that basically… Being tired and stressed and how it affects everything else. And so I always say culture is what you do. You can’t create culture. You can’t make them.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, to add to what you always say, it’s not what you do. It’s what you do every day.

Karla Nelson: Yes, exactly. Okay, this is great. Let’s move on to the next one.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. The next one. This is the strength of an idea.

Karla Nelson: That’s not too bad of the title.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. No, not at all. Unfortunately I don’t… I’ve got an example of this and we’re going to talk about and it’s not quite as fun to laugh at those. It’s a bit of a serious one that there’s sometimes serious you can have some rough things that happen. Now, first off what the strength of an idea is, and that’s when you have an idea and you’re like, “This is the way things are.” And you have just such a strong mindset that you think something is going on when it is not what’s going on at all and it’s so strong in your mind and you’re not willing to question your own thing. Everybody’s just, “Hey, let’s just go along. Yep. This is the idea, that’s what we’re going to run with.”

Karla Nelson: You never hear that in business.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. I’ve got a pretty rough example of this that you may have heard of. A lot of people have heard about this, a couple of years ago in Afghanistan we had a military aircraft called an AC-130 gunship and these planes are extremely good at… Well, what we like to call, bringing down the heat. They can unload some serious amount of heat on something and they can destroy the bad guys like you have never seen before. It’s a very impressive piece of machinery but when this particular example on this day. You may have heard about it, there was a hospital in Afghanistan and the crew on the AC-130 miss identified a hospital and there was some miscommunication. There is some miscommunication where the guys on the ground said, “Hey, we’re being pinned down, we’re in a fire fight, we’re taking fire from this location.” And there’s a lot of details that went into this.

Without getting into the details, the bottom line they were given one set of coordinates and said, “Hey, right here is where the hospital is” or excuse me. “Right here’s where the bad guys are.” And when you look at the coordinates, that they’re given a set of coordinates at one place, the bad guys were not exactly there was a little bit off where they were, the guys were being shot at that sent the coordinates. So you can miss, it’s really easy-

Karla Nelson: The previous one, the accident zone model, the stress was… the ability to handle stress well, in the stressful situation, right? And we just learned about that one.

Kevin Nothstine: You know what, that’s a great point because the guys on the ground had been there for four days. Four days of constant fire, constant things going on and now all of a sudden they’re taking fire from another location and it was in the middle of the city and sometimes in the city it can be hard to find things on the ground. And the aircraft, there had been some people shooting at them, so they were actually nine miles away. They’re a lot further away than you normally are and at lower altitude and it gets into some of the technicalities it can be hard to find things on the ground and they’re given coordinates that weren’t exactly right. But the coordinates they are given, unfortunately, the way the camera was looking from those coordinates in the background, they saw… Is at night and they saw this large lit up compound.

They’re like, “They’re taking fire from somewhere.” We’re looking at this area, what we see in our camera from the court and say gave us, is this nice compound that’s very lit up and really sticks out amongst everything else. That must be where the bad guys are. So then they get eyes on the compound and they described the compound of the guys on ground and said, yep, we see a T shaped building with a bunch of people and it’s pretty well lit. And the guys there goes, “Yeah, that’s your target, everybody there is bad they’re shooting at us.” And we teach people how to avoid this. And then they didn’t follow any of the standard protocol and this, they messed up a lot of things. So there were a whole bunch of the air

Karla Nelson: We had number six definitely drove number seven.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, yes it did. That accidents on model of number six drove the strength of an idea in number seven. And their idea was that compound they’re looking at was the hostiles, it was the bad people. Well, it turned out it wasn’t hostiles, it was a hospital. And they did what the AC-130 gunship does well. Which is bring the heat and they… It’s unbelievable the amount of fire power that they brought onto there because they were being told by somebody incorrectly that, yes those were the bad guys, engage. You’re cleared to engage and take them all out. And unfortunately there were 37 people that died.

Karla Nelson: That’s horrible.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. And not just that, and not just the desk, but just the international things and then the briefing wasn’t present.

Karla Nelson: Well, and not only that, that first is an accident and it’s like, “Yeah, that’s why war stinks.” And in business of course that is definitely not to… I would almost venture to say never the case unless somebody gets hurt, right? People do get hurt at work and look, the crab fishermen’s, right? I mean, they probably could learn from this because that is the… What did they call that? The deadliest catch. It’s the most… More people die that are fishing crab in Alaska than any other job. And so in most things in corporate America, that’s not the case, but it’s still really important that you understand that the strength of an idea and really how that perception of what’s happening in your decision making and how those two things can really mess things up, right? In your business.

And that’s why you’re trained to this guy by the way, that’s why we’re going to the podcast series with this, is because there is no better training than the military. That’s what these guys do day in and day out. And look, they can even mess it up, right? So, and boy, four days on the ground, I don’t know they should have probably taken those guys or gotten them out somehow sooner than that. That would be so disorientated I don’t even know how I could do that. And then all of a sudden you’re already scared. You’re already disorientated and now all of a sudden calling in coordinates for getting help. Well, obviously you want to get help. It’s just a really tough situation. But so proactively we can learn from those exact things in business. Okay, onto-

Kevin Nothstine: Business is the strength of an idea but what you want to have to counteract that is a healthy skepticism. You look at something, we’re about to do some serious… Something that’s a serious nerve we’re going to go and purchase.

Karla Nelson: That’s our approvers.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes we’re going to buy $100 million office building. Yep. That’s the right thing to do. Let’s go and do it. Let’s go and do it. Let’s go and do it. The environmental survey said that there’s something going on with the foundation of this area. You know what? That’s what we’re going to do. Let’s run forward and do it. I had a friend of mine that happened to and he ended up over a year that he was tried to settle the environmental issues with a property they had to buy.

Karla Nelson: Exactly. So you got to do your due diligence, get your details. There’s this wonderful process we actually teach for the strength of an idea, if you want to check it out, it’s called the WHO-DO method. So, okay. Let’s move on to the next one, number eight.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Okay, this one’s the wild card. This is a little bit of a wild card of what are the traps or one of the mistakes people can make. And it’s just a sudden loss of judgment. And you know what? Every now and then and for lack of a better term, I’m sorry I’m going to use something that’s not completely comfortable but it’s the term you can call this a brainfart.

Karla Nelson: Everybody knows that. Hey, there you go we just renamed number eight.

Kevin Nothstine: Brainfart.

Karla Nelson: That’s funny.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, and I will give you just a simple little example. This is your sudden loss of judgment where you’re going along fat, dumb and happy. Everything is okay but all of a sudden from out of the blue, you make a stupid decision and you just do something that’s not smart or somebody else does. Of course, you wouldn’t. I would never do that and I and Karla and all of our listeners here. No, they would never do something like that. But somebody you work with may go and do something like that. And I’ve had somebody that I worked with, I wasn’t on this flight but we had a pilot. He was flying from one country to another. He had a about a two hour flight over the water, so there’s no airports or anything else around and it’s actually a pretty benign, nothing’s going on. They got the autopilot on and the guy actually happened to be an Uber approver and he’s deepened thought and he’s analyzing what’s going on and he started thinking about things.

Well, he got so lost in his thoughts that he had a sudden loss of judgment and he started wondering about the system and he was going, what would happen if I did this? Well, what did he do? He’s at 28,000 feet over the water and he reached over and shut off all electrical systems on the plane.

Karla Nelson: What, on purpose?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, just out of blue. Kind of. When you look at it, it is… Yeah. He reached over and hit the switch and just turn it all off.

Karla Nelson: Well, think about how would you guys do simulations and trainings for certain things. I mean, he’s just sitting there, when you’re cruising up there, there’s not much to do and there’s plenty to look at. It’s pretty, but it looks all the same for the most part up there.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. And he’s at over the ocean and just not a lot to see or do with his whole process on thoughts and reach over.

Karla Nelson: Did he have a co-pilot with him?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. And I’m surprised he’s still alive after the cop-

Karla Nelson: So what are you doing? My gosh, did he recover from it? This is-

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, yeah, they did. A Plane will still fly without electrical power, it’s going to keep flying with no problem.

Karla Nelson: Like a glider?

Kevin Nothstine: No, both engines are still running everything is still flying. The list is still being provided. Everything’s still working.

Karla Nelson: So you just flip the switch back?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah.

Karla Nelson: Okay. That’s a good one.

Kevin Nothstine: So just that sudden loss of judgment and that’s… There’s a lot of things that can lead to sudden loss of judgment. That brings us to number nine on this list. And some of the things that can lead to that sudden loss of judgment are hazardous attitudes.

Karla Nelson: You know what? We could just call it a bad attitude. Bad hazardous.

Kevin Nothstine: Hazardous, yeah.

Karla Nelson: Hazardous attitude, it’s a bad attitude.

Kevin Nothstine: You got to show your vocabulary to them. All right and there’s a lot of hazardous attitudes there. And in fact, this is actually probably worthy of its own podcast of getting in depth into some of these, but just to highlight at the top level what they are. Just some of them anti-authority, lets just not dig at the boss. Resignation, well that’s e or is all about the resignation this is the way it is.

Karla Nelson: Well and that’s also engagement, right? If there’s so many things that could have somebody in that similar to passenger syndrome. Listen to me. My gosh, I’m learning a whole bunch of stuff on here. But it’s also… Everybody resigns for different reasons and that’s the crazy part about this, shakers resigned because it wasn’t their idea. Movers resigned because nothing’s going to happen anyway and I’m not in charge of being able to facilitate this with a process. Approvers resigned because there’s too much wrong with it and makers resigned because they got real work to do back at their desks. So what’s interesting, and we will wrap up the last podcast. I’m going through each of these because I think attitude, it’s like if you could fix that one, people are open to training, they’re open to learning more, they’re opening themselves.

So this is a super important piece that we’ll be doing a full podcast on. Solutions for those different issues with bad attitudes because some people start out with a bad attitude because they have a bad attitude, okay? I would say most people end up with a bad attitude because of an experience that they’re having that is a negative experience. And then that leads to whenever… What were their percentages of the employee engagement when we did on the last podcast? 53% of employees are disengaged. 13 are actively disengaged. Basically working against you, thats 66% are unengaged. And 70% hate there job in the U.S. 89% worldwide. And that’s Gallup. That’s not me saying it. And so I think resignation is a really interesting and we’ll dive deeper definitely into that on the last podcast to give you some solutions for the attitude challenge. Because I think we label it attitude. Bad attitude but that could be an outcome, not somebody who’s natural.

If you tell somebody, approver every single day, “You’re Debbie Downer and write a book about how to deal with them.” That they’re e or that they’re negative Nelly. All of these things, how do you think that’s going to make them feel? They’re not going to want to be engaged. You’re not allowing them to do the thing that they’re brilliant at, right?

Kevin Nothstine: I’m going to let the cat out of the bag just a little bit. And one of our future podcasts we’re going to be doing is something that we developed called the 10 rules of business.

Karla Nelson: That would be a good one to do.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. And rule six without talking about the others right now, Rule six, your attitude determines how far you’ll go.

Karla Nelson: So true and that… My goodness, you know what I’m thinking of? Now going back to the first podcast in this series, we talked about influenced authority, and so go back to the first podcast if you listened to that. All of these pieces are all parts of a bigger puzzle and they drive every other piece. So we really encourage you, make sure you listen to all or parts of the podcasts that are created in a way that are easily digestible and you can see how they drive each other and also, how you can use the WHO-DO method within the situations to be able to. First, figure out how you get that authority, how you’re positioning yourself as a leader and moving between those different authorities and then the kind of authorities. And then going through how do you coordinate a team and make sure that you don’t make mistakes when you’re working a team. These are all designed to interact with the WHO-DO method. So go ahead, you have a couple more here on the attitude.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. Yeah. Some of those bad attitudes or the hazardous attitudes, in vulnerability or a macho or machismo, impulsivity-

Karla Nelson: That never happens in the millitary-

Kevin Nothstine: Heck yeah. But my bad one, impulsivity.

Karla Nelson: Yes. And working with a prover and a thinker, by the way on both sides, the thinking aspect of it. The prover and shaker because they’re in their head. They can go. It’s funny because when we have meetings, Kevin in the Island and I frequently, we weekly have meetings. That is one thing I’m like, “Okay guys, focus I love you, but your skippity duda are skippiting out, right? It’s time to get something done. Which then leads to my biggest challenge with hazardous bad attitudes. I guess I call it hazardous that is good… Hazardous is actually better than bad because an attitude of wanting to get something done, you’re right. Mistakes can happen, but if I called it a bad attitude, I’m typically happy when I’m tried to get something done, it’s not a negative thing to me, right?

Kevin Nothstine: Now this last one that, what Karla is talking about there, get something done. Is the sixth hazardous or bad attitudes you can have and well, my bad one is impulsivity. A very dear friend, a member of our group it’s get there AIDAS. in flying airplanes. That’s, I’m here at location a and come hell or high water at the end of the day I want to be at location B and I want to just get there get it done. So inclined sometimes you’re willing to make that mistake, and the business world that get there AIDAS. We’re going to talk about this more in the next episode is I just want it done. We got to get across the finish line. Well, once he gets across the finish line, there’s another finish line and then another one but get there right. So Karla, did you know anything about that?

Karla Nelson: No, no, no, not at all. Just kidding, it’s my worst definitely on all of those. I would say I’m pretty great on the other ones but that one I have… Just today, I could probably tell you that, that… And the problem with, get there AIDAs that I’ve learned and we’ll go again, as Kevin said, deeper in the next podcast is when I realized I was a driver and I had get there AIDAS as a mover.

And so you could just leave dead bodies behind you if you don’t understand it and you don’t understand first the authority you have with people and then you’re a driver and you’re in charge and you have get their AIDAS, you could make all mistakes. It’s about engaging the team. We need everybody, we need you at different times but we need everybody and get there AIDAS is really… You’re going to see that way more with the mover and the maker but they have a different form of get there AIDAS, right? so yes, we’ll go deeper into the podcast because your attitude is super, super important and it drives all of these other things because when that’s not happening, you’re opening yourself up to listen, to hear and to learn. So, okay, take us home with number ten.

Kevin Nothstine: Karla, before we jump into that one, I do get to say you’re doing an outstanding job. I teach this for a living. Well, and The People Catalyst is one of the things I’ve done for many years that I’ve taught this for a living.

Karla Nelson: We can’t, couldn’t take. We couldn’t pry Kevin out of an airplane if we try and he has to include it in his in training. He loves training people, so yes. See, although we’ve had the opportunity to work with some of the military teams as well, which is super cool and overlays the WHO-DO method quite frequently with it. So yeah, we would not want to take Kevin out of that completely because he would not be happy.

Kevin Nothstine: It’s not what I do, it’s who I am.

Karla Nelson: That’s funny.

Kevin Nothstine: Now the reason I bring this up is I have taught these principles and concepts to hundreds, if not thousands of air crew members over the last 20 years that I’ve been teaching a lot of these concepts. And your ability to pick this up and connect the dots between the different aspects of this, of talking about if we connect this one with that one, it is truly impressive.

Karla Nelson: Thanks. It’s like I’m a trainer or something, right? Well, do you know what? And this is a good thing to actually talk about for a second is, you never want and think you know so much that you become a danger to yourself and everyone else around you. Because the more that I learn, the more that I learned that there’s so much I don’t know. And I think when it comes down to training, the military is definitely the detail on… I mean, they could kill you with the paper cuts, right?

But at the same time applying this, they’ve been doing this a long time. Their job is to train every single day. There is a lot that we can learn from that. And then also opening ourselves to continually learn and how we can do this and teach this to the teams so that they’d have a tool in their toolbox, right? So if somebody is having a hazardous attitude, that you can say, that’s like this and it looks like you’re doing this and let’s have a conversation around that because what happens is, it empowers everybody to keep everybody else in check so it’s super cool. I love it, thank you. I appreciate that.

Kevin Nothstine: No, my pleasure. Okay. And then the last one, error chain. Now, the error chain. Well, We’ve all seen-

Karla Nelson: So we are talking about like one mistake compiles on something else?

Kevin Nothstine: Exactly, exactly. And a good example of this as we talked earlier about that example of that C-130 in Afghanistan… The the AC-130. Do you think that was the only mistake of the night where the only thing that happened wrong was they miss identified that location. No, not at all. There is a whole series of mistakes or small little things or different things that add up over time and it, one mistake, and it can start from, “Hey, you did a wrong little checklist item here or on that same sorority on that one earlier in the day. One of their pieces of equipment, is a very important communications equipment, their satellite link back to their support group personnel broke. And so they lost a satellite link back home. And they also had some miscommunication that happened with the crew at another part and they had another piece where somehow, there’s one crew member that-

Karla Nelson: Wow, that’s like on accident zone and then the strength of an idea, not passenger syndrome. I wouldn’t say that one, right? Because they weren’t just sitting around, eating Bonbons, that’s for sure. So yeah that happened to

Kevin Nothstine: But there’s a lot of mistakes that happened that lead up on and that’s the error chain, that can lead to that big mistake of that company having to declare bankruptcy because of a whole multitude of mistakes that happened along the way.

Karla Nelson: Yep. So you’ve got to break that chain somehow when it’s happening for sure. Awesome. All right. Well, Kevin is there any last comments that you’d like to make before we wrap up of the third part of a four part series in how to lead like a boss. Even though this one is how to lead a team like a boss?

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. On this one. This was all about those errors that you can make yourself or recognize in other people and just knowing that these all exist and now you want to create a culture and think about avoiding each of these different traps that can pull you into a bad situation.

Karla Nelson: Awesome. Well, thanks again for being on the show and make sure you check out the first and second part of this fourth part series and we’ll be wrapping up the final series next week where we’re going to dive a little bit deeper into number nine, which was hazardous attitudes. Thank you again, Kevin.

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How to Lead Like a Boss (2 of 4)

How to Lead Like a Boss

(Part 2 of 4)

In part two of this series of How to Lead Like a Boss, we discuss how to work as a team like a boss. There are 10 “traps” in working with people.  We discuss 5 this week and another 5 next week!

If you missed Part 1 of this series, where we discussed the sources of leadership power, you can listen to it here.

The first 5 Traps are:

  1. Excessive Professional Courtesy
  2. Halo Effect
  3. Passenger Syndrome
  4. Hidden Agenda
  5. Accommodation Syndrome

Listen to the podcast here:

Listen in as Karla and Kevin Discuss How to Lead Like a Boss (2 of 4)

Karla Nelson: And welcome to The People Catalysts Podcast, Mr. Kevin Nothstine.

Kevin Nothstine: Hello, Karla. Happy to be here.

Karla Nelson: Hey, so glad to have you here. We had so much fun on the last podcast. We kind of dove down a little bit more into these… If you haven’t heard the first podcast, it’s how to lead like a boss. And we talked about the seven sources of authority, and I’ll just take a moment here to introduce Kevin, and give you his background, and the reason why we should be listening to what he says on this particular topic. He spent 21 years in active duty as an officer in the Air Force, and he worked with the special ops aircrew that flew a mission. It was the same mission that he flew in Afghanistan and Iraq, and now teaches these other special ops teams and aircrew how to find the bad guys and tell the good guys where they’re at.

So if you think about the Bin Laden raid and how they have the stack, is what they call it, his particular aircraft, that he flies and trains as an instructor. The crew, the mission crew is called an MCS-12 and that is at the top of the stack. And so he is also one of the co-founders of The People Catalysts. And Kevin is a prover shaker. And what that means is main prover, if you notice out loud I said he’s an Über prover, but he also has a secondary core nature of work as a shaker and likes to come up with ideas. He’s his own worst enemy in his brain sometimes. “Idea! Bang! Idea! Bang!” Right?

Kevin Nothstine: And we contrast with Karla, who is the Über mover, who wants everything done yesterday.

Karla Nelson: No. Yes. All right. So for today, what we’re going to be talking about is how to work as a team like a boss. And now there are 10 pieces that Kevin’s going to walk us through on this. And it would have been too long of a podcast. So we are going to break up … We will do five here today, and then next week we will go through another five just to make it digestible, so that you can use these 10 different ways to work as a team like a boss. All right, Kevin, take it away.

Kevin Nothstine: All right. What we’re going to do on these 10, where this comes from is Crew Resource Management, is what they call it in the military. And of course the military has to have specific names of everything, and these ones are the Human Factors Traps.

Karla Nelson: You just got to love how the military names things, right? It’s like, it’s got to have some secret way of knowing this and needing an acronym. It’s hilarious. I’ve had a lot of fun going through some of their training manuals.

Kevin Nothstine: So this particular one, they call them traps. And basically it’s challenges to people working together as a team. And it’s things that you can identify-

Karla Nelson: It doesn’t always work out? What do you mean? We would be out of business if it did, I guess.

Kevin Nothstine: Sometimes you got a problem. Every once in a great while, somebody might have one of these 10 issues going on.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Kevin Nothstine: And as we get into it, and we’re going to have some stories and talk about different ones and some from the military and some other places. Hopefully we’ll have a lot of fun doing this. Well, the first one we’re going to talk about is what we like to refer to in the Air Force, they call it Excessive Professional Courtesy.

Karla Nelson: There we go again. I love these names. This is great.

Kevin Nothstine: And what is it that’s going on? You don’t have a willingness to call out the boss when something is wrong. And they’re actually saying, in the military, we try to teach the pilots, “Hey, when you’re flying an airplane, just because they’re the boss, you should still be able to call them out.” And I guess a real good example of this from the flying world, and I’m sure you can think of something from the business world as well, but from the flying world, I had one day, I was a young copilot, a young guy first starting out. And I was in the right seat of a plane called the C130. And on the ground, my supervisor, my direct boss, happened to be the aircraft commander that day. So he’s in the left seat of the plane. So I have me sitting there, my boss in the left seat. Now we’re flying as a formation, and the aircraft in front of us that was leading the formation had what we call the group commander. This is a bird colonel. It was my boss’s boss’s boss’s boss

Karla Nelson: They have a lot of bosses.

Kevin Nothstine: It’s the hierarchy, just like corporate America. So basically, we have the COO up there in the lead plane, and I’m the mail clerk down in my plane.

Karla Nelson: That’s a good way to put it.

Kevin Nothstine: So, we’re flying at night. We’re doing a training mission. We do a lot of training. And we’re training of how to do an airdrop of people out of your aircraft at night. Now instead of people, we actually had sandbags this night. So we had a 15-pound sandbag that we’re going to simulate people jumping out of the plane. Well we’re flying along directly behind our lead aircraft at night. And to do the drop, we had to descend, we had to go down almost 2,000 feet to get to a lower altitude so we have an accurate drop going over the drop zone. Well, lead aircraft initiates it and says, “Okay, time to descent. Let’s go down.” And we start our descent. Well the lead plane, with the equivalent to the COO, the bird colonel up there, he only went down 500 feet, and he leveled off exactly a thousand foot higher than what he was supposed to. So we were continuing down-

Karla Nelson: And you guys are both dropping bags?

Kevin Nothstine: Yes.

Karla Nelson: That would be bad.

Kevin Nothstine: We’re planned to. Now, we always brief up. We had provisions what we call a no drop to say, “Hey, there’s something wrong. Don’t drop.”

Karla Nelson: Mm-hmm

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. So, we continued our descent, and we get down close to drop altitude, and I look at the plane in front of us, and we could see him. It was a nice clear night. I said, “Hey…” I’m in the right seat. I’m talking to my supervisor next to me. And I said, “Hey-”

Karla Nelson: Okay. Tell us what being in the right seat means, because some people might not know what that means.

Kevin Nothstine: The copilot or the first officer. And the man in charge is in the left seat. That’s the aircraft commander. And so here I am the copilot, doing other duties while he’s flying the plane. Well I brought it up and I said, “Hey, lead leveled off.” He goes, “Yeah, I think they did.” I said, “They’re not coming down any further and they’re about to drop.” And he goes, “Yeah, I think you’re right.” I said, “He’s about to drop a sandbag, and we are now out of position and well below him, and we’re about to have a sandbag come right in one of our engines.”

Karla Nelson: Like good-bad scale. That would be bad.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, that would be bad. And he said, “Yeah, we’re going to go ahead and climb back up.” So he climbed back up to his altitude. We matched his. But we didn’t say anything to them. Now he’s just dropping a sandbag. But it could be dangerous if we were actually dropping personnel. We could put them in the wrong place if we’re dropping them from the wrong altitude. But we didn’t say anything to the plane in front of us. And they went across, and they dropped their sandbag. And we called a no drop and didn’t drop our sandbag, because we weren’t in the right position.

Well, after the sortie, we get into the debrief. And the group commander, the, the man in charge of everything, was going around the room, and we went through. It got to that point. He goes, “Now, you guys no dropped. Why did you no drop on that?” And still, my supervisor isn’t saying a word about it. And I’m looking at him, and I was just wondering, “What is going on here?” And that finally I spoke up, and I said, “Well, sir, you were exactly a thousand feet above your drop altitude.” And, at first he didn’t believe it, and then his navigator says, “You know that makes sense based on our drop score and where the sandbag fell.” And right after that, the commander said, “Well, why didn’t any of you tell me something was wrong?” And the answer was Excessive Professional Courtesy. My commander, my aircraft commander right next to me, was showing excessive professional courtesy. He didn’t want to call out the boss for this potentially dangerous situation.

Karla Nelson: Wow. I bet you that might even be a little bit harder in the military than it is, just because the formalities, than in business. But somebody that can utilize this, I mean you just effectively sync your entire team if you are using that Excessive Professional Courtesy. And the other side of it is you have to agree to it. That’s why we’re going through all of these different steps. Because if your team is trained in, you are trained, you can actually just point at that and say, “This is the pitfall that you ran into that was keeping our team from working to its ultimate performance.”

And so when you understand that these are the 10 things that you need to take a look at that are going to affect your team negatively and or positively, and what I mean by that is if you know it’s Excessive Professional… That needs a better name. You don’t want to call out your boss on something, then you have to have the agreement that it is okay to call out the boss on that thing. And so you have to go both ways. If you’re focusing on, hey, why didn’t you call me out?” It’s like, well yeah, that would probably, depending on what the culture of the company is and what’s going to happen if you call out the boss, right, that’s just as important to manage before you’re in that situation instead of getting upset that somebody didn’t call you out.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. You’re exactly right. You have to create that culture where people understand that it is okay to call people out when something is potentially wrong.

Karla Nelson: Yes. And accept there’s a way to do it. And my dad used to always say, “You can tell me anything Karla, but you better mind the way you tell it to me.” Right? So like for instance, if you know you need to call someone out, it doesn’t mean you call them out in front of 50 people. Every scenario is going to be different, right? But what he was saying is, “You can tell me I’m wrong, but think about how you’re telling me I’m wrong.” Right? Or have a process by which you do it. There’s this really cool process we teach. Okay, Kevin. Next one.

Kevin Nothstine: Next one. Halo effect. This is another item that can mess things up, but you have to watch out for it. Actually this isn’t strictly to the military. There’s a book that came out in 1920 that first talked about this halo effect. And what it is is when somebody does really great at one thing, so you assume that they’re going to be great at something else. They said, “Oh, they flew this plane really, really well and now we’re going to transition them over to a different air frame, and we assume that they’re going to do an awesome job in this air frame based on their past performance in something that may or may not be related to the same type thing.”

Karla Nelson: Yeah, that can also be for the perception of companies. Allen and I did a review on Good to Great, what was awesome about the book, but what was missing because the companies didn’t do that well, but when that book was written, everyone was like, “Wow.” And the title of the podcast, if anybody wants to go back and listen to it, is Good to Grave. Because the companies that were identified, I think there was like 13 of them, a lot of them did really horrible. And even Kodak was one of them and a few other ones that went away completely. But the one that I think of when we did the research on and I read the book was Cisco Systems. So they were huge and they were just growing like gangbusters in the 90s during that tech boom and all the reports on Cisco Systems were, “Oh my gosh, you’ve got a masterful strategy and your acquisition ability to grow by acquisition and you have a superb customer. I mean everyone was like, “Invest in this company, invest in this company, invest in this company.”

And then the tech bubble hit. And literally the same exact people were like, “They have a horrible strategy, right? They don’t know what their customers want.” And it’s like the same people had the exact opposite thing to say, right? And of course Cisco Systems did turn around and they’re still a big tech company today. However, they were the same company, right? So you have to think, I mean it was the same company. So that halo effect that happens that says, “Oh, you’re wonderful, you’re wonderful.” It can also happen just in the shift of your perception of a product of a company as well. So there’s a lot of ways to look at the halo effect.

And one of the other things that makes me think of is the iPhone. Everybody said, “Oh, the iPhone is going to be the best thing since sliced bread because why? Because the i…” What was that thing called? iPod.

Kevin Nothstine: Because the iPod did so well.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, the iPod did so well. And so there’s different applications. So contextually you can apply the halo effect to of companies’ products, a company and looking at their strategic plan and what they’re doing. Then you can also be selling yourself on one of those things on either side of it, by the way, right?

Kevin Nothstine: Yep.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. I bet you that’s really interesting. In the military when you’re a pilot, everyone thinks, “Oh, you can fly that plane so you can fly any plane.” It’s even more than that because the missions are all different.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, and I can go even deeper than that, but we don’t have time for that.

Karla Nelson: I’m sure you can. Mr. Prover. Believe me, Kevin can always go deeper and go into more detail without even thinking, but that is why he is our lead prover on the team. So, okay, what’s next?

Kevin Nothstine: Next one. Passenger syndrome. Passenger syndrome.

Karla Nelson: Okay. Layman’s term. So sitting around doing nothing. Twiddling your thumbs.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep, exactly.

Karla Nelson: Okay, there you go. Twiddle your thumbs syndrome.

Kevin Nothstine: It can also be called-

Karla Nelson: I’m going to rewrite all their training books.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, we talked earlier about another name for this is what we sometimes refer to as the copilot syndrome. Well, earlier you were asking about right seat versus left seat. In an airplane, the right seat is the copilot or the first officer in the civilian world, and the left seat is the aircraft commander. Well when you’re in that right seat, if you get somebody that is running the show and they’ve got it all taken care of, or if they’re kind of overbearing personality and just an Über driver and doing stuff-

Karla Nelson: Well that reminds me of when you told me a story about when the fighter pilot, which is a single person aircraft typically, then you have to then put them into the crew world and then the mentality of… Just tell the story. You probably have a whole bunch of them, but I think that’s really interesting to think about. Even moving culture to culture within a division of a company, there could be an issue with that.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, the story that I think you’re talking about there is actually a little more halo effect where a guy was like, “Hey, I’m great at this other air frame and I’m moving into a crew aircraft, and I’m teaching the guy crew, crew, crew.” At the end of the day, he goes, “If I’m the one that’s flying a plane, why do I need to brief anybody else about what I’m doing?”

Karla Nelson: That’s hilarious. It wasn’t that one. It was something about like going a whole sortie and never saying a word or something like that.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, that’s a whole other topic. That’s a whole different one.

Karla Nelson: So just share with us then the mentality of the crew versus the fighter and why that is so… It’s not just, “Oh, you’re a pilot.”

Kevin Nothstine: I’ve got a good one that’s going to work on this passenger syndrome and actually it’s one that when I was flying one day, if I would have been in the passenger syndrome, it could have been bad.

Karla Nelson: There you go. That’s good.

Kevin Nothstine: And what happened? We’re doing a takeoff and we’re training like we do a lot of times. We’re training if we were taking off from a short field. Now to put this in perspective, we’re flying a C130 and it weighed about 130,000 pounds. Now a normal a takeoff role for a plane like that. You have a runway that’s about a mile longer, one to two miles long. Well we are practicing. What if your runway is less than a half mile long and you have to take off in that situation? So we’re on this runway that is actually about a half mile long. And so we run the engines up, we’ve got full power and holding the brakes, and it’s kind of like a race car sitting there at the starting line waiting to go, and we call it break release. And we’ve got full power and the plane starts rolling down the runway and it’s moving-

Karla Nelson: That’s got to be fun.

Kevin Nothstine: It is. To be blunt, it is. On this day, the pilot, the left seat that was flying the plane and doing this, all of a sudden his seat, its position, the tracks gave loose, and his seat slid all the way back. And it slid so far back and he’s holding his arms straight out as far as he can and he couldn’t even reach the controls of the plane.

Karla Nelson: On a good, bad scale, that would be bad because the two things… What are the two times that are most risky? When you’re taking off and when you’re landing probably.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. Yeah. That’s the most risky parts of the plane. And here we are taking off on this half mile long runway, and all of a sudden the pilot can’t touch the controls. Now, if I would’ve been doing the passenger syndrome and just sitting over there going, “Oh, he’s got the plane, everything is fine,” it could have been catastrophic. We could run off the side of the runway or something like that.

Karla Nelson: That seems awfully short for 130,000 pound plane.

Kevin Nothstine: That’s what we train to.

Karla Nelson: See, guys, this is why training is really important, right?

Kevin Nothstine: On that one, I was in the seat and I actually had my hand on the yoke, my right hand on the yoke, my left hand on the power levers. My feet were on the rotor pedals. So as soon as he slid back and he’s got his arms stretched out, looking like Frankenstein, the very next words that all he said was, “You have the plane.” I was just sitting there doing nothing, and now a heartbeat away, I’m the one that’s flying the plane.

Karla Nelson: Wow. I would have been probably puckering up a little bit in my seat on that one though. In the corporate world we have this word for it, acronym we’re talking military stuff, is employee engagement. And I actually really can’t stand the word even though its realities are very serious, especially in corporate America. We consistently talk about how they’ve done this Gallup poll every single year, and typically somewhere around 70% of people in the United States, 89% worldwide hate their jobs. Not just like not hate them. They hate what they do every day.

Now, if you break down those numbers, they did another study of engagement specifically. And 53% of people are actively disengaged and 13% actively disengaged. Think about that. That’s the group that now is working against you. They hate being there so much, right? So 66%. what does that do to a company’s ability to succeed?

And to me the passenger syndrome that you’re talking about and disengagement is more of an issue because they’re not being either trained properly or most importantly, it’s why we teach the WHO-DO™ method because you can apply the WHO-DO™ contextually to every single one of these things. And so, this is kind of what I like to say, the soft skills, right? To be aware of something so that you can proactively work around it. But when 66% of people are disengaged in their work, how do you get anything done? Okay, you can have the soapbox now. I don’t feel passionately about that at all.

Kevin Nothstine: No. And you know what? We’re going to move on to the next one I think.

Karla Nelson: That’s good.

Kevin Nothstine: Next one is the hidden agenda. And what this is, you have a reason for doing something that you’re not sharing with the group, and it is not in line with the goals of everybody else. You have some hidden agenda, and this could be a very large one. You can think of corporate espionage and those type things, but even on a much smaller scale, on a simpler scale, this could be, you got a late afternoon meeting, you’ve got a three o’clock or four o’clock start time on a meeting, and you want to get home to your kid’s recital, your kid’s doing a piano recital. So in the back of your mind, you don’t care about that meeting. You don’t care about choosing the best solution. You don’t care about making the best things happen, right? You just want to do whatever you can to make that meeting in so you can get home to go to your kid’s recital. And that’d be a hidden agenda.

Karla Nelson: Yep. Yep, yep. Yep. That happens all the time probably. And that’s one of the great things I actually do love about the military. Everyone on the call here are listening on the podcast has been around military individuals or are a military brat themselves. My dad was in for 24 years. My father-in-law was in for 30 plus years. Kevin. I just have a lot of people that I know that are in the military. And actually two of my bonus kids are in the military as well. And so I love how they let you then say, “Hey, my kids has something and family time.” Well, in corporate America it depends on the culture.” That would be looked down upon if you had to get to your kid’s recital. And that’s not every company. It’s gotten so much better even than when I was younger. But if you talk to our parents about that, you could have a whole bunch of people with a hidden agenda because they don’t want to speak up to say, “Hey, I’ve got this thing.” Right?

And so that again is about opening that culture up, and the military is the best I think at that when if you got a sick kid, people understand, right?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah.

Karla Nelson: If you need to get home to your family, people understand, which is pretty cool.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Last one we want to talk about today is what we call accommodation syndrome. Okay. And this one’s a little more in depth, a little harder to understand than the hidden agenda. Now, the accommodation syndrome and what this is about, it’s your decreasing arousal to a stimulus because-

Karla Nelson: Okay. English please.

Kevin Nothstine: You accommodates something. Okay. What happens as you continuing to do something that’s risky, the more you do it, the more times you do something that has some inherent risk, the more you…

Karla Nelson: The more you’re willing to do it, like it doesn’t feel risky anymore.

Kevin Nothstine: Exactly. You don’t perceive the risk near as much because you’ve been doing it several times.

Karla Nelson: Ooh, a lot of people did that back in the crash in 2008. They were so used to buying these big commercial buildings and this and that, that never, they couldn’t lose. They did it so many times. And then all of a sudden the timing of the market, they just went down because inherently buying a hundred million dollar he used the property is risky. After you’ve done it 20-30 times and you’ve made money, it seems like it’s less risky, right?

Kevin Nothstine: Exactly.

Karla Nelson: Makes sense. Well, this reminds me of the innovation area of doing this. There are so many different companies out there, especially right now with the decentralization that technology has brought companies where whoever had the most money always won before. Now it’s whoever takes care of your customer and can build an app, can takeover. Look at the hotel industry. AirBnB dominated that and they don’t own one piece of real estate, right? And I think of companies like Kodak who created the digital camera, but they didn’t want it to take away from their other business. So they sold off their IP. Well that’s why they are gone, right? Taxi industry. Uber did the same thing. Taxis were expensive. The process was horrible, right? And then all of a sudden they take that industry.

And not only do they take it over, they grew it. So they launched in San Francisco. And the taxi industry was $1 million per year, and they grew it to an industry that was 10 million per year utilizing Uber. And so they not only changed the course of the industry, they actually grew the market, which is kind of unique because we always talk about TAM (Total Available Market) and… I won’t get into all that. But to actually have something that’s so valuable that it grows in industry because of innovation.

So the accommodation syndrome, yes. It definitely can be used that hey, you’ve done this, it’s risky, it’s risky, it’s risky. And your inherent thought of it is, “Oh, it’s easy and so I can just keep on doing it.” But if you look at Blockbuster is the same way. With innovation, they thought they were too big to fail. So they had had their 10,000 stores forever. And guess what, there’s one open, right? We teach this in our training that the way they stayed open was an innovative way of staying open, which is you can only go and rent DVDs that you can’t access streaming live. And so I think innovation is a really good one to look at in business for the accommodation syndrome and running businesses are like, if you’re growing by acquisition, I’ve seen that. Or if you do a turnaround, people that go in and do turnarounds and they’re fixing something up. Even a house for sale that do flipping homes after they’ve done it so many times they think, “Oh, you know what?” They don’t take into consideration $100 million sounds like funny money. It just sounds like some other different day, right?

Kevin Nothstine: If you want a real good example of that, just look at the United States government. A billion here, a billion there. And pretty soon you’re talking about serious money.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, definitely. That’s awesome. Well, these are so good. I know we can’t get through all 10. That’s why we are breaking this up into a four-part series now, and we’ll go through the next five. And then what we’re going to do is we’re going to pull some solutions out in the final part four of this four-part series. So, thanks so much, Kevin, for your time here today in how to work as a team like a boss.

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How to Lead Like a Boss (1 of 4)

The People Catalyst Podcast Episode 113

How to Lead Like a Boss

(Part 1 of 4)

The People Catalyst Podcast Episode 113_Facebook

Did you know there are seven sources of your authority? In this episode, we dig into what those sources are and how to tap into them.

Listen in as we explain how to lead like a boss using seven steps of your authority.

Listen to the podcast here:

Listen in as Karla and Kevin Discuss How to Lead Like a Boss (1 of 4)

Karla Nelson: And welcome to the People Catalyst Podcast, Mr. Kevin Nothstine.

Kevin Nothstine: Hello Karla, happy to be here.

Karla Nelson: We’re happy to have you sir. This is really going to be a fun podcast and as you guys may have known, Kevin has been on the podcast a couple of times before. Kevin is one of our co-founders at the People Catalyst and he is a prover shaker. That means he is mainly a prover but he has a little bit of a secondary shaker in his core nature of work and Kevin spent 21 years as an officer in the military, specifically in the Air Force and currently still teaches some special ops peer crew in the same mission that he flew in Afghanistan and Iraq. So he’s also been an instructor pilot so although he’s a master trainer with the People Catalyst he is, I’ll tell ya, training somebody on a combat mission that basically this mission is like to find the bad guys and tell the good guys where they are.

So like the Bin Laden raids where they have what they call “The Stack” all the way from what they call the MC-12 to the top to the boots on the ground and there could be many different aircraft and then they get there early and they do a whole bunch of secret stuff that I have no idea, but I know that it’s pretty intense and they have some of the best training ever. And a lot of times when we take a look at training, who’s the best at training? The military is amazing. Their job, Kevin’s job for years and years was to go to work and train and they simulate training over and over again because in business most of the time, I would venture to say, it’s not life or death. You guys have to figure out how to make sure people don’t die and also that you know, mistakes are going to happen and when they do they’re really, really significant in his line of work.

So a lot of times we like to take a look at the military’s training because it is so good and then apply that to business. And what we’re going to talk about here today is how to lead like a boss. And so there are… what was the actual military name, I can’t remember?

Kevin Nothstine: Where we’re pulling this from is a thing called crew resource management. But this particular section of it, the military title for this is aircraft commander authority power basis. So that’s their long handle.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Say that three times fast. We’re just going with how to lead like a boss.

Kevin Nothstine: I like it. I like it.

Karla Nelson: And there are seven sources of this authority.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, definitely. And there’s parallels between how we teach this in the military and what’s happens in the civilian world as you’re going to see throughout the day here, throughout this podcast. So first one we’re just going to talk about is a very obvious part of authority and what this is where your authority comes from as a leader or as a boss. The training we do in the military, this is as an aircraft commander, as somebody that’s leading a crew to go and accomplish a mission. And wherever you have that crew, you’re going to have several people, depending upon the size of your crew, it can be anything from two up to, I’ve seen some aircraft that have a crew of 70.

In one aircraft at one time, you have one person that’s in control of that. Well that one person that’s in control of it, in the military, it’s very obvious, when we set those crew orders, we identify the leader and on the actual orders they have a little place for codes and they put the A code next to that leader. And that A code says, “Okay, for this sortie this is the person who is the commander, the aircraft commander up there.” And there’s a lot of power in that word commander because in the military it’s actually legal, it’s your legal authority of it. But once you have that A code, once you have that legal authority, well what we refer to that is legitimate authority and the legitimate authority-

Karla Nelson: So now let me just say, now we’re going into the first of the seven steps, right? Is that where you’re bleeding necessary?

Kevin Nothstine: Yes.

Karla Nelson: Okay, just wanted to confirm. I’m trying to soak it all in and also learn as we go because I think this is not only amazing and fantastic, but authority is a very important thing in business. And of course in military it’s even more critical. And so go ahead Kevin. Tell us about this legitimate authority.

Kevin Nothstine: And you’re exactly right. As a prover, I do like to jump into the details very quickly. So thank you for putting that construct on that context for us.

Karla Nelson: Well, and this is like second nature for you, you’ve been utilizing crew resource management for the better part of 25 years. So it would make sense that what is easy and just you can flow through for you is definitely… And it is details, my goodness, I’ve never seen training in such detail, it’s incredible in the military. I mean, it doesn’t matter if you’re pushing papers or flying an aircraft, there’s a lot of rules to follow.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh yes, very much so. But yeah, you’re right. And just a little bit more context on this, we’re going to talk about these seven sources of your authority, that Karla had mentioned. Now you flow in and out of these different sources of authority and we’ll probably talk about this at the end just a little bit more, but there are these different ways you have authority, but as a good leader, you have to understand that your leadership ability comes from all of these. And there are different times where each one is a good tool to use as part of your toolkit.

Karla Nelson: And they can be overused and underused.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. On both of them. So yeah. Thank you. So that puts it a lot more in context, what you’re talking about. Now of those seven that first that we started to mention is that legitimate authority and that is when your power is based on the position held by the leader, that’s when it comes in and tell you that, “Okay, this person, they write the check or they’re the ones that are identified as the boss.” So they have that position of authority. So when they speak, somebody’s going to listen to them, they’re going to have that influence over their team by the fact that they are the identified leader.

Karla Nelson: Interesting. You know what this makes me think of? Every meeting that a CEO walks into and derails everything, which we’ve actually happened to have that happen to us in the beginning of training so many times that we had to come up with these 10 rules to follow and the agenda doesn’t even get derailed with the CEO, they have to trust the process as well. And Kevin, you’ll appreciate this, this was with a military group and they were working with the government and they are contracted with the government but this very, very, very, high authority, big kind of ego group of people. And they have us sit down and kind of strategize how they’re going to deliver a cut of a third of all of their pay and still keep the entire team intact. And so, of course, the leadership just wanted to walk in and say, “Here you go, we’re going to cut your pay by a third. Good luck.” How’s that going to work out? Right? And so we’re like, “No, there’s a better way to do this. Let them solve their own problem.”

And so definitely legitimate authority is important. I would venture to say in the military it’s really important, but then also the balance of that is to say that just because you have the authority, you have to think about how you’re delivering different things at different times in different ways. I mean there’s only one answer to this problem, but if you walk in and you’ve already solved it because you’re put in authority there and you just tell somebody instead of utilizing the team to come about certain answers, it just can go both ways on these things, right? So you can under use it and over use it. And I think it’s that balance of the two and knowing when to use it that there’s a lot that goes into that.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, definitely. And it’s easy to see as a parent as well, when you have your child doing something, how many times have we heard, “Well go and do this.” And these kids says, “Why?”

“Because I’m the parent. I said, so.” Well you just practiced legitimate authority.

Karla Nelson: I hated that one as a child, but it’s true. Right? And your parent does need that authority. At the same time, you have to balance the two out for sure. Okay, let’s move on to the next one. I’m excited.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Next one. A good one here is a your expert authority and this is the fact that you can have influence over a group of people, by the fact that you are the expert in any given area. Your skill or your knowledge, when you know something better than anybody else in the room that now gives you that respect and that authority and that power base to be able to influence your team.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, and is a lot of training companies are built on what somebody knows about a certain problem and how to solve it. So, for sure, That’s definitely…

Kevin Nothstine: When you talking about the training companies, that really does highlight the fact that you know, as a leader, if you don’t have the expertise in an area, well, where can you get it from? Well, you can bring in somebody else to help out if you don’t have that expert power, if you don’t have the that authority with a team. But the fact that you bring them in, that’s a great way of exercising your expert authority. It could also be you acknowledging the fact of your lack of expertise.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, that’s a good point. Both ways. On all of these it seems so far. All right. What’s the next one?

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, next one is information authority. Okay. You can also have influence, just the fact that you are in possession of or you have access to some information that everybody else perceives as something of value. If you know something that’s going on, if you know something that’s happening in your culture or something is happening with your company or if you’re in touch with the right people with the right information, other people will acknowledge you as a higher authority figure just because of the fact that you do have that piece of information and they would like to be able to have access to your information sources.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, so you know what’s going on in the company. You know where all the… Movement, where we going?

Kevin Nothstine: Skeletons are buried.

Karla Nelson: I was going to say that and I thought, “Should I say that?” That’s kind of true though, right? Because you’re balancing, for instance, when we were working with mid market companies and building them up to sell, one of the biggest things here was, and it’s how actually I met Allen, and you would go into this company and they’re like, “Why are you here?” Well, you can’t deliver to them, “Hey, we’re here to build this company up to sell in a couple of years.” Because, hello, they’re going to wonder if they’re going to have a job next week. Right? Which the goal almost never was to reduce the amount of people that were in the company, but what happens is then now, as the leader, the trainer, the person walking into it, you actually do have a lot of “information authority” instantly, even though, then you have to balance it out with some of these other ones you talked about expert authority.

I will probably get to other ones as far as like building relationship because that’s why we would then run the process to figure out who was on the team and what pieces of work they could do in order to build this company up. But it was interesting because I never thought about information authority because now all of a sudden they’re like, “Oh they’re sitting down with the leadership and they’re not in the company per se.” And that really did lend a lot of authority like, “Who is this person that they brought in?” Not only expert but information, like you’re the one who knows what’s going on around this place. Interesting.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, definitely. And then the next one on this one, now in the military, they like to call this one reference authority. I don’t like that name at all. I think a better name for this is really influence, you have your influence authority. And what that refers to is just the fact, personality traits. Are you a likable kind of person? Do you pass the beer test? And you know that’s going to give you some authority.

Karla Nelson: Who ever came up with that, the beer test? I think that was that Dennis

Kevin Nothstine: Or I guess we’re assuming everybody knows what the beer test is. So what’s the beer test?

Karla Nelson: The beer test is, do I want to have a drink on Friday with you after work?

Kevin Nothstine: It’s that simple. And you know what? If it’s somebody that you can get along with that is a source of authority that you can have. And I’ve got a really good story on this, just kind of showing leadership, if we’ve got the time for it?

Karla Nelson: Sure. Yeah, go ahead.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Well I was at an organization, this is overseas and as part of the military of course, this is a major part of my background, and we had a real culture problem at this one base where I was stationed and it came from just the mindset of the senior leaders that were practicing their legitimate authority and these senior leaders, for lack of a better term, it could be called a bit of an elitist and somebody that he did not pass the beer test. In fact, he was very stringent in the fact that he told all of the leaders right beneath him that they will not hang out or have a beer with the lower ranking people because that promoted fraternization and fraternization is wrong. And that was their mindset. So in this environment we got to the point we’re having monthly meetings and they’re like, “You know what, we have a culture problem, so let’s have a meeting once a month and bring everybody in and let’s talk about the stuff that might be nice and that’s going to help our culture.”

Now what’s really funny is how they conducted this meeting. The senior leader, the Colonel that was in charge of the whole base, so several thousand people under this guy, equivalent of a CEO of a very large corporation would hold this meeting once a month with all the officers. So you have 10% of the people, the officers or the leadership of the whole base and bring them all together and they’d all be in the room and they had it at the officer’s club at a ballroom right next to the officer’s club, so it’s next to the bar. And the first thing they would do is everybody’s in the room waiting for the senior leader to walk in. And we walked in, it was a standard military type thing where he would come in the same door and he’d open the door and somebody would call the room to attention and everybody would pop to attention and standing there nice and rigid and looking straight ahead. And then he would walk from the back of the room all the way up the center aisle through the crowd and wait until he was all the way at the front of the room. And then he would tell everybody, “Take your seats.” And everybody would take a seat.

And then they would go into thing and somebody would try and do something funny or whatever the presentation for the month was, but just right there, the beginning of it was just a culture crusher. And then when the meeting ended and they would schedule them on Friday afternoons, it’d end at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon at the officer’s club…

Karla Nelson: Yeah, because you put the meeting on Friday, then it makes it fun and we can solve a culture issue. It’s ridiculous.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, exactly. And what happened as soon as the meeting’s done at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon with everybody at the officer’s club, they would scurry like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

Karla Nelson: That’s a new one. I haven’t heard that one before.

Kevin Nothstine: Five minutes after the meeting was done, the place was a ghost town and the couple hundred people that were there are now disappeared. Nobody wanted to hang out and nobody wanted to do anything. And they’re intent of trying to work on the culture, they actually hurt their initial intent with that. Well, the reason I tell that one, that’s the negative aspect, but we had a good leader in there, a new Vice Wing Commander, the number two guy that came in. Without giving his name, he went by PJ, we’ll call him PJ.

Well, on one of these meetings, the senior leader, they Colonel that set all this up, wasn’t there. He wasn’t going to be there that day, he was traveling, and PJ was going to be the senior leader on this particular meeting. So everybody’s in the room, they’re waiting for the normal thing and they’ve got somebody stationed by the back door, so as soon as PJ would walk in the door, they’d call the room to attention, everything. Well, PJ knew a little bit more about culture and had an understanding and he snuck in through a different door. So it’d be like your COO sneaking in through an entirely different door and he comes in, snakes in and puts his head around the corner and he yells out to the room, “Hey! We’re going to get started in about five minutes here, but before we get started, I’m going to go to the bar and grab a beer and if anybody wants to join me, you’re welcome to.”

Karla Nelson: The only difference is I’m not sure that you probably want to serve beer at a meeting that was on the clock in the private sector. It’s one of the cool things about the military though.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. But it’s a Friday afternoon and look at how many times when you go to a conference or something and how many times they have alcohol there at the conference. But it is-

Karla Nelson: So tell me then, how did everybody react?

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, this was the funny part. All the younger guys, the lieutenants and captains, all the young guys are like, “Oh, we can do that. All right, it sounds like a good idea,” And they headed over and they go walk into the bar, “This is good.” All of the more senior folk that had been around for a year or two and had seen the culture were looking at each other confused, like, “What? Can we do that? Is this a trick? Is this a trap? What’s going on here? I’m not sure if we can do this.”

Karla Nelson: I bet you that was funny. He sounds like fun, I’d love to meet him.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, he was a great guy, just an outstanding individual. Just a really good leader, and he understood the influence and that influence authority that you have on an organization and everybody respected him for that.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, just somebody that you like, that’s likable, that wants to get things done, but not trip over themselves along the way.

Kevin Nothstine: And that truly was the definition of the beer test with him.

Karla Nelson: Cool. Okay. What’s next?

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Next one is a coercive power. Now this is one that normally we can associate this with the negative parts. The coercive power or coercive authority, it’s your ability to influence people because you can punish them. You can give them some type of punishment that’s-.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Like fire him?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. You can fire them or give them a bad review or something…

Karla Nelson: Demote?

Kevin Nothstine: Right. Exactly. All those types of things. And I kind of liken this one, it is a power that as a leader that sometimes, unfortunately, you have to use. Now I like to liken this one to a flying analogy. When you’re flying an airplane and you’re coming in and you’re trying to find a runway and you’re in the weather so you can’t see the ground and you have instruments that are telling you where to go. Well, you want to be on a specific track, you want to be on on course, on glide path is what we call it. And that’s left and right and up and down and the right speed and everything as you’re coming in to find the runway so that you can land safely when you pop out of the weather. Now, if you get a little bit off course, you want to hear somebody saying, “Hey, you’re a little bit off course. You need to get back on the right course here.” And then if you get a little further off course, “Hey, you’re well off course, you need to correct ‘this much’ back over.” Then the ultimate, the coercive power on this is, “Hey, you’re well out of course, your too far, I’ve got the airplane, I’m going to take it away from you and we’re going to go around and try this again.”

Karla Nelson: Yeah.

Kevin Nothstine: And that’s that…

Karla Nelson: I could see how that would be really important to understand and balance that one. It’s like you don’t want to be… They have to learn, right? Especially, if it’s in an instructor situation. At the same time, so you have to let them get a little off path, but then when it’s dangerous, you have to step in then.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, but it’s the same thing in business. In business, if somebody is not performing where you want them to be and your other sources of power are not influencing them to be able to accomplish what you want done, then sometimes you do need to use the stick in the carrot and stick approach of leadership.

Karla Nelson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Got it. All right. What’s the next one?

Kevin Nothstine: Well, the next one is the carrot. It’s actually…

Karla Nelson: First we went with the stick, now the carrot.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. The carrot. And that’s your reward authority. And by having the ability to reward somebody, it’s the opposite of the coercive, you can reward them with promotions, you can reward, reward them with bonuses. If you have that ability to provide a reward for something, [crosstalk 00:20:31]…

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Even recognition is a good one there.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. Yes. Very much so.

Karla Nelson: Because, as a leader, really recognizing… And in learning the Hoodoo method and all the different types of work that we do with companies so many times, and I’m really, really, really guilty this because I am uber mover and I am a DI internally and an ID externally when I’m working with customers. So you can leave dead bodies behind you and all sometimes people need is to be recognized for what they’re great at. For whatever reason, in society, we focus on what’s negative and what’s bad about, for instance, a shaker. I could tell you 10 words we call them that are negative words. And the only positive word I’ve ever heard is shaker, right? Because what do we call them? Squirrel.

In the military it’s chief idea fairy. And we call them, “Gosh, your head’s always in the clouds.” And so what happens is that we’re focusing on when somebody isn’t instead of just recognizing them for what they are. People, if you can tap into that and identify what they’re great at and bring that reward piece out, they will actually take that over pay. I can’t remember what the stats are, it’s been a long time since I looked at it, but especially the younger generation, the millennials.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, we could have a whole conversation on that. Just you start talking Maslow’s Needs Hierarchy and if somebody has already met their security needs or their safety needs and they’re looking for those higher levels of acknowledgement, then yes, there’s a lot of ways that you can reward somebody.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, very cool stuff. I love that one. All right. What’s next?

Kevin Nothstine: Well the next one is actually another way that you can reward somebody, but it’s a very specific kind of thing and we like to call this connection authority. And what that is…

Karla Nelson: Ooh, I think I like that one.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, you’re definitely going to like this one, you have this one in spades and I’m going to tell somebody about your ability on this. Now what this one is, by the connections that you have, you have authority with a group of people if they perceive those connections as power for them. If they want access to your friends, you know certain people and they want to know those people, well by knowing you, they can do that. You can be a channel. You know, in LinkedIn they practice this. “Oh, are you a first connection or a second connection with somebody?” And it tells you, “Oh, I’m connected to this person and this…” You know, if you look somebody up on LinkedIn and it’ll say, “Oh, you have 11 mutual friends.” Ah, if you want to know that second a level of person, then you look at one of those connections between the two of you and you say, “All right, I want to work with this person.” And that gives you that connection authority in a group of people.

Karla Nelson: Good stuff. I love that one. And by the way, a friend of mine, I don’t need to do this, jeez louise, connection authority, but she wrote the book How to be a Power Connector and it ended up being a bestseller and she’s fantastic. Her name is Judy Robinett. If you want to read a great book on connection authority, she was an introvert and learned this later on in life and has just gone on to crush it. Her new book is Cracking the Funding Code too because she’s worked with a lot of startups, raised capital for those startups. So again, How to be a Power Connector, great book if you want to discuss connection authority. I think we could do an entire podcast on just that authority. Maybe we will take a look at these and see how we can break them down to give different pieces and points of how to balance yourself through that. Because connection authority is absolutely one of the most powerful and probably the easiest one of these, which is, “Hey, I just took the time out…”

Kevin Nothstine: The easiest for you.

Karla Nelson: Say that again.

Kevin Nothstine: The easiest for you.

Karla Nelson: Oh that’s a good point. Oh, that’s so… And then I’m going to send you to another book by Matthew Pollard, which is Introvert’s Edge and he talks about introverts thinking that they can’t sell because they’re introverted and he says use a process. And that’s exactly what is in Judy’s book is a process for connection. Which I think you’re right, for me, it’s second nature, right? So it’s easy, it happens and my goodness, I just did it on accident right now talking about it. Right?

Kevin Nothstine: I’ve got to tell a little story with you just to really bring this in. And this can be a teaser too because we can deep dive into any of these subjects and I know you really would love to deep dive into this one, but I’m going to tell just a surface story just to teaser on this about you. Okay?

Karla Nelson: Okay, great.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, well just a little background on when this story happened, you know I was in the military for 21 years and my last two years I was was training people in this new mission in the Air Force, this new aircraft. And we had 16 new students, in a three or four months syllabus, 16 new students every Monday for two years.

Karla Nelson: Wow. That’s a lot.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes.

Karla Nelson: For what you guys go through, I mean the amount of training guys that they go through to be a aircraft commander, let alone… and Kevin’s instructor as well, so he instructs all the other air crew on what to do. It’s intense.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, a big lesson that I learned from those two years, now, we brought people from all across the Air Force and just to show an example, it’s very different if you have somebody that’s flying a cargo plane or an aerial refueler versus somebody that’s flying an F-35 or F-22 fighter plane. Those are very different mindsets and that have been trained different ways. And we had students from every platform across the military that would come together and then we’d try to get them to fly as a team on this one new aircraft. And I learned one of the most important things that every time I would sit down with a group of students or have a meeting with people, the most important part of that meeting was the introductions. And in that introduction of learning their background and learning who they are. Now, we’re going to tie this into that connection authority. Now, I had been doing that for a couple of years and then I met Karla and I ended up going to a meeting with Karla and she started it off, we had a couple of good friends of ours, Adam Ferling and Jim Pelli and myself and some others sitting around the table and we’d never met before, but Karla was sitting there and she was the glue that brought us together being the connector.

Karla Nelson: No. Imagine that we were attending a training? And I actually was facilitating that training, but I try to learn and train just as much as everyone else. We need it, we need it. Okay, go ahead. I’m still wondering what you’re going to say.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, the way that we sorted this out, and we were actually this was after the training or a little bit more and we’re sitting around actually having a glass of wine, passing the beer test there, and before we did anything at all Karla started it off and she went around the table and said, “Hey, you guys haven’t hung out before. Let me go around and I’m going to introduce who you are.” And she talked about me and talking about my time in the military and after she talked about me, I’m like, “Holy cow, who are you talking to, I want to meet this guy? He sounds pretty awesome.”

Karla Nelson: That’s because what you do, you don’t think it’s so cool, but everybody is super cool in their own right, usually, and have done some amazing things. And the last person who wants to say it is the person that you asked to do the introduction to.

Kevin Nothstine: And she went around the table and each person just… Now, it was a good group of guys. Well, while I say that now and why do I believe that? Because Karla told me. Karla had that influence, that connection. But she sat there and said, “Oh, this guy, he started designing websites for companies when he was 13 years old.” And Oh by the way, this gentleman was old enough that was in the dawn of websites and he contacted a ski company out of the blue and told them, “Hey, you need to do this on your website, it’ll make it better.” And they hired the guy they didn’t know he is 13 years old.

Karla Nelson: That was a good one. And that’s awesome and it’s-

Kevin Nothstine: So it was just everybody. And you were able to build that authority of yours by your connection. And that is a true power that somebody can have to get influence over a team.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. And it’s super cool. I mean I know it’s easy for me and I really enjoy people and everybody is different. However, that skill, if you can use it, is not only an amazing powerful skill to build authority, just the trust comes with that authority as well. And when people know, it’s the know, like, and trust piece. And if you’re interested in others then they find you interesting. So that’s awesome. Well I think we’re going to have to wrap it up on that last one, that was really super cool. I can’t believe that there’s actual training in the military that talks about connection authority. That’s awesome. I love it. And again, those two books, How to be a Power Connector and Introvert’s Edge are both really great books on how to do that. Especially if you are, I’m obviously an extrovert, but if you are not, because you can still build your network and your authority when you’re not as extroverted.

Kevin Nothstine: I’m going to try my hand at that connection in the introduction, very briefly, we talked about Judy Robinett, she’s an outstanding author and a bestseller and everything else. Judy started out, she drew up and I think she’s still listed to this day in a town in rural Montana, a town of 300 people.

Karla Nelson: Oh no, that’s where she grew up. She between Idaho and really she was in Utah in Salt Lake, but yeah, her home town was the hometown of Napoleon dynamite. What a great story that is. That’s funny. Yep, exactly. And she didn’t launch her first company, I don’t think, until she was like 40, she opened a restaurant and it almost went under. And it’s a great story, it’s actually how she starts out her book. Well, Kevin, this was so awesome. Fantastic. Thank you so much for bringing your brilliance here on the podcast today with how to lead like a boss.