Your Post-Virus Plan Starts Today with Andrew Sherman

There’s never been a better time in history to buy a business or make yours worth buying. More people are made millionaires during times of distress than any other.  Are you ready to recover from the COVID crisis?

Andrew Sherman serves as a legal and strategic adviser to both leaders of Fortune 500 companies and founders of rapid growth, emerging businesses in the areas of business planning, corporate finance, Mergers and Acquisition (M&A) and intellectual property harvesting; such as franchising and licensing strategies. He is the author of 26 books on business growth, M&A and strategy.  Andrew is an adjunct professor in the MBA program at University of Maryland and at Georgetown Law School for nearly 30 years.  Hang on for this action-packed podcast where we discuss the largest transition of wealth in the history.

Partner at Syfarth in Washington D.C.

Twitter: @AndrewJSherman

LinkedIn: LinkedIn

Amazon Author Page: Author of 26 books

Listen to the podcast here:

Read Along as Karla and David discuss Strategic Relationships

Karla Nelson: And welcome to The People Catalysts Podcast, Andrew Sherman, again.

Andrew Sherman: Maybe I’m getting quasi co-host status soon, you know? I don’t know how many shows I have to be on. I’ve got a lot to say right now, maybe I’ll run out of stuff to say, but …

Karla Nelson: Oh, I don’t know about that. After 26 books, I don’t know about that one. I think you’re always going to have something.

Andrew Sherman: No, it’s great to be back.

Karla Nelson: It’s great to have you, Andrew.

Andrew Sherman: Thank you for having me again.

Karla Nelson: And it’s a really interesting time, right? So, the last podcast we had was pre-COVID-19, right, where we’re talking about these intangible assets that companies can have that have real tangible value in the company. But let’s kind of rewind that a little bit right now, in regards to there’s so many companies that are really looking at what this effect … I mean, we had 2008, how many baby boomers hung on, right? Because they were like, “Hey, I got to build up my enterprise value,” because 2008 was a kind of a hardship. And then now, all of a sudden, we’ve got this COVID-19 challenge. We’ve got what? 250 billion just basically exhausted out of the marketplace. And so, what do you have to say in regards to that effect that that’s going to have on valuation? Especially with this 40 to $50 trillion in assets, the largest amount of assets that have ever been transferred since the beginning of time, in the whole world.

Andrew Sherman: Exactly. So there’s a lot there, I mean, one of the things I just want to say, coming back to our previous podcast together, we didn’t have, because it hadn’t happened yet, we didn’t have some of the concrete examples to talk about. And I just want to start the podcast, if I could, with a few of those because I think there’s lessons to be learned for all of your listeners. You know, you don’t have to be the size of some of the companies that I’m about to mention, but one company I’m particularly proud of right now, is General Motors. General Motors was given a task, by the White House, to build ventilators. They retooled their plant, they harvested their intangible assets, their know-how, their systems, their expertise, their manufacturing capabilities, their processes, their channels, and they were producing ventilators within 11 days.

Now, if you think about General Motors, I mean, you know, people aren’t really buying that many cars right now. It’s not a critical asset, relative to other assets that our society needs, and they took everything they know about building complicated machines and applied it to ventilators. And 11 days, I mean, Karla, that’s remarkable.

Karla Nelson: That’s insane pivot right there.

Andrew Sherman: Yeah. Same pivot, clothing and apparel makers pivoting and re-shifting fabrics and tooling to produce surgical gowns and masks and PPE. Distilleries retooling their plants to not make gin and vodka, even though we all need that-

Karla Nelson: I know. And making hand sanitizer.

Andrew Sherman: Exactly.

Karla Nelson: I saw a couple of those articles. I was like, “Well, beer, hand sanitizer. Okay.” I mean, actually, when you think about it there’s a lot of similar aspects, right?

Andrew Sherman: Don’t mix it with tonic because, yeah, you’re not going to like it very much. The ingenuity that underlies those steps, that retooling, re-purposing, ability to pivot, is inherent to the company’s, number one, ability to harvest their intangible assets, but number two, it’s inherent to their enterprise value. And I do believe that as we get deeper into this topic throughout the podcast, this theme will be recurring. You know, what is your company’s ability and how quickly are you able to adapt to pivot, to retool, to re-purpose. Because I do think that there’s a bit of a thinning of the herd happening right now and if you want to be part of the herd that survives, which I know all of your listeners want to be, and you want to be on the buy side of some of the distressed M&A that’s going to be coming up as the herd thins, you’ve got to be able to demonstrate to the capital markets and to buyers, or to sources of finance, to be a buyer, because that’s another audience that we should talk to, right-

Karla Nelson: Absolutely.

Andrew Sherman: … is how quickly were you able to adapt, to pivot, to retool, to re-purpose around these extraordinary conditions. And I feel so strongly about this. I’ve been preaching it to anyone that will listen, to clients and non-clients, to podcasts, to articles. The most recent interview I did for CNBC was all about this very topic, of the need to retool and to take inventory of your skills. Take the inventory of the things you’re good at and ask yourself, “What does the market need right now? What do my customers really need versus what they want?” Because with consumer discretionary spending down and unemployment up, the things that people want are going to be set aside for the things that people need. And I think there’s so many companies that are so much more capable of doing more than they’re doing now, but they have to do a little introspection and do a little strategic planning and really think about, maybe with the help of outside advisors, but really think about what their core skill sets are and how that’s going to affect short, medium, and long term enterprise valuation.

Karla Nelson: No, I totally, completely understand that. And even think about from the buyer side, you were talking about Andrew, is not just one company, but think about being able to have these distressed assets and three companies that do three different things, but when you put them together, they might make a really great potential asset that-

Andrew Sherman: Exactly.

Karla Nelson: … you’re thinking out of the box, right? You’re using that ingenuity that you’re talking about, the innovation, of being able to pivot and then go, “Okay, what does the market want?” Just like GM did, right? I mean cars then ventilators in 11 days. And then how do you think that people should think of the buyer side of this aspect? Because I think if you can get the financing, and there’s probably going to be some distressed assets, what is it? 90% of people sell because they just burnout?

Andrew Sherman: Yep, exactly right.

Karla Nelson: So after your burnout, that’s not forward thinking, that’s not looking at enterprise value, that’s basically tapping out saying, “Man, I’m done with this.”

Andrew Sherman: Well here’s the other thing that’s been coming up. A lot of small business owners that have been interviewed lately on the press, and this is before we recognized that the $350 billion is gone, it’s spent. I mean, unless Congress authorizes another 250, all the Christmas gifts have been handed out and there’s no more gifts under the tree. And so a lot of business owners that are being interviewed that I’m listening to are saying, “Hey, I don’t know if I have the fortitude and the patience-”

Karla Nelson: Yeah, the staying power.

Andrew Sherman: “… to get on the other side of this.”

Karla Nelson: Yeah.

Andrew Sherman: And remember, the reason that’s an important point is, it doesn’t mean their business is flawed. It’s what you just said a second ago, they’re burnt out, but that doesn’t mean their business is burnt out. So I might have a very viable $5 million business, but I just can’t, I don’t have the energy, to get to the other side. So that’s where I might be willing to sell that business at a distressed valuation, for the privilege of exiting.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, and think about that, Andrew, on the backs of 2008, this is not that long after 2008, so many people held on. Oh my gosh, right? After that, to say, “I want to build my enterprise value prior to sale.” Some of them exited, but there’s a lot of them that are still on the books that, you know what, they were still holding on and they were, you know …

Andrew Sherman: Right. Not withstanding the…

Karla Nelson: They probably should have sold sometime around November, December of last year.

Andrew Sherman: Well, I hate to serenade you, but not withstanding The Motown Song, “Ain’t No Mountain High Enough,” there were some mountains that were too high, right? There were mountains that could not be overcome and that’s what caused some distressed selling. But to go back to your question, which is the really fascinating one, what do you do if you’re a buyer, right? If you’re a buyer and you’re putting together a business plan that says to sources of financing, “Hey, my name’s Karla and I have a vision to buy these distressed companies and do a roll up or a consolidation or whatever you want to call it,” you need to demonstrate to the source of capital, that you have the MFD. What do I mean by MFD? The magic fairy dust. How are you going to sprinkle, after each closing, your magic fairy dust onto these companies to begin finding their true intrinsic value? And if for every $5 million business out there, it’s available to be bought for a million or two million or some lower, even a multiple, that’s how people, after the last great financial crisis, became millionaires and billionaires.

Karla Nelson: Yep.

Andrew Sherman: Because they had the vision and the fortitude to be a buyer against the grain, but also to see the inherent enterprise value of companies that really, the company wasn’t distressed, the founders were distressed.

Karla Nelson: Were distressed. Okay. And you hit on a good point here, Andrew, that I’d like you to elaborate on, is that market capitalization, or you said market cap, right? And then the enterprise value, right? Because those are two sides of the same coin and it’s a super thin coin, but it’s just the lens that you’re looking through, right? In regards to enterprise value and then market capitalization. So can you elaborate on that? And then also sprinkle your magic fairy dust on how people can look at those two different things and put them together. As you said, it created millionaires and billionaires. I mean, more people are made millionaires and billionaires during times of distress than during the economic boom.

Andrew Sherman: Very much so. So look, for many, many, many, many years we’ve been valuing most companies, now there’s certain industries that vary, but most companies in most industry sectors are valued as a multiple of EBITDA, earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization. So if you’re in an average market and an average industry, you might be at somewhere between four to six times EBITDA. If you’re kind a beat up company, it might be closer to 3.5 to four, if you’re a real rock star, it might be higher than six. Let’s just say that the four to six time is the market cap, what the market is willing to pay based on a multiple of EBITDA. And in a sellers market, that can climb up. I’ve seen multiples of EBITDA into the double digits, if you’re lucky enough to get it.

Karla Nelson: Especially with data, oh my gosh. I mean, look at LinkedIn. Never threw a profit, but then all of a sudden Microsoft saw the data side of it.

Andrew Sherman: Well, the problem with LinkedIn is anything times zero is still zero. They had zero EBITDA and somehow got 26 billion from Microsoft. So, it’s always nice if you can get 26 billion times more than your adjusted EBITDA.

Karla Nelson: And the exact example of the intangible assets, so their intangible asset was data.

Andrew Sherman: It’s my favorite example.

Karla Nelson: It was valuable to Microsoft, even though LinkedIn never pushed a profit, but then sold it for 26 billion.

Andrew Sherman: Yep. And by the way, as silly as that sounds, like who pays $26 billion for something earning no profit? I promise you, I haven’t seen numbers recently, but I promise you the thing’s worth 50 billion now.

Karla Nelson: I bet.

Andrew Sherman: You know, I think Instagram was bought for a billion and everybody went, “What are you talking about? It’s Instagram.” And that’s now worth a hundred billion. So the smart buyers, and that’s the lead in to the rest of your question, right? So there’s multiples of EBITDA, but what a smart buyer needs to be able to see, is the true intrinsic enterprise value. And not everyone has the eye for that and the nose for that. The eye and the nose for true enterprise value, is to be able to look at a company and go, “Okay, so even at the upper end of an EBITDA multiple, let’s call it six or seven, this company has some intrinsic assets that I, the savvy buyer see, that the seller does not see for himself or herself.”

And that may sound like you’re being deceptive. It’s not. It’s how wealth is made. Buy for a dollar, something that’s worth three, buy for a dollar something that’s worth 10. Even if you buy it for $2, if it’s worth 10, there’s still a good spread. And then if you layer on top of that, oh I don’t know, a global pandemic, right? I mean, there are buyer and seller cycles that happen even without a global pandemic that affects millions of millions of people. So now, you talk about an incredible time to be an aggressive buyer over the next six, 12, even 18 months. I think by 2022 a lot of this will get sorted out or at least we hope it will, we’ll have the certainty of the elections behind us, hopefully we’ll all be a lot smarter about how to be ready for the next one or if there’s a second wave. But you know-

Karla Nelson: And we’ll all be on Zoom, or some other platform.

Andrew Sherman: Yeah right, all day long.

Karla Nelson: You know, it’s funny Andrew, I have utilized different platforms for so long. So Zoom, when it first came out, I don’t know, it was like seven years ago or so, has never had a challenge with it. And then all of a sudden they went from, I think it was like 10 million users to 22 million users. So in the last couple of weeks it’s been like the first time that Zoom kind of clunks up a little bit and is not-

Andrew Sherman: Well here’s the funny question, do you know how many times in the last four days I’ve been asked, “So are you wearing pants?” And then when I say no, I’ll say, “No, I’m not actually. Do you have any other questions?” That usually cuts it off right there, I mean, once you tell somebody the answer is no, they don’t ask a followup question.

Karla Nelson: That’s hilarious.

Andrew Sherman: And that’s if you turn the Zoom video on, I mean, I’m a big fan of Zoom audio, I don’t need to see you, just hear you. No, but-

Karla Nelson: With that Andrew, what are your couple top points of looking at where individuals could either take their company and roll up a couple companies into it to be able to move forward, or just if they’re early on in the stages, and being able to take advantage of the potential six to 12 to 18 months that you were talking about, in regards to being a buyer? Answer that one and then we’re going to shift gears and then we’ll talk about the seller side, right? Because there’s two different sides.

Andrew Sherman: Yeah, exactly. Well there’s one or two more buyer issues we should probably talk about, but they affect both buyers and sellers, but to answer your more direct question, I have helped clients, over the years, craft an acquisition strategy. And when you craft an acquisition strategy, you’re doing a couple of things. The first thing you’re doing, is building screens and filters, right? You’re building a series of acquisition criteria and screens and filters that will help you evaluate.

If there’s a hundred people in the room and you’re single and you’d like to meet one of them, you’re going to have a number of screening criteria as to how to narrow from a hundred down to two or three to one. And it’s the same thing with M&A, you need to develop your likes and dislikes. Do I want this company to be in my backyard? Does it matter? Are they in the same vertical as me or similar vertical? Is this an add-on or a bolt-on? Are we going go wide, adding a new products and services, or are we going to go deep, deepening our penetration into a business line that we’re already in? And those are really important parts of an acquisition strategy, even in a distressed time, you still have to have criteria, you don’t want to be just willy-nilly. It’s like going to the food store with the blinders on and just buying whatever you touch and then looking at your food cart when you’re done and going, “What the hell did I just buy?”

Karla Nelson: That’s when you go to the grocery store hungry, that’s just when you’re…

Andrew Sherman: Precisely. That’s a-

Karla Nelson: You should not do that.

Andrew Sherman: But that’s a great metaphor, okay? That’s exactly what you’re doing. Don’t be like the guy at the smorgasbord with 5,000 things to eat and either try and taste all of them, and have a terrible experience, or you’re so confused by your choices that you were like deer in the headlights, don’t make any of them. So you know, you want say, “All right, I’m starting with protein and I’m going for chicken and there’s eight types of chicken and these are my ranking criteria.” You’ve got to have an acquisition plan, you’ve got to decide if you’re going wide or deep. Why are you buying these companies? Are you truly filling in missing strategic puzzle pieces of your overall business model? Don’t buy something just because it’s cheap, right? I mean there’s things out there that are going to be low priced, but you don’t buy them just because it’s a low price if you don’t need them or there’s no strategic fit.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, they’ll sit in your fridge and you’ll never use it anyway.

Andrew Sherman: Exactly. Exactly.

Karla Nelson: Why acquire it to begin with, unless there’s a strategy around it.

Andrew Sherman: Exactly. So I think there’s going to be a lot of intelligent buyers, but there’s also going to be a lot of unintelligent buyers. And the same thing happened when we’ve had real estate dips. When real estate market gets weak and the sophisticated buyers know which buildings to buy, which properties to buy, which shopping centers, and multifamily housing and they’re going at this with real precision and real focus. But the uneducated, they’re buying some shopping center out in the Podunk suburbs, that was a bad shopping center before the turndown happened, and it’s going to be a bad shopping center after the turn down happened and now you’re just stuck with a bad piece of property.

So that’s my best advice for buyers, is really map out your acquisition strategy, develop your screens and filters, develop your acquisition criteria, and then you articulate that to the source of financing and they’re either going to buy in or not, just like a regular business growth plan. They’re going to look at it and go, “Yeah, I believe in this team. I believe in this group of advisors, I believe that they will use, not only their screens and filters to spot inherent value that sellers can’t see, but then after closing, they’ll be able to sprinkle their metaphorical magic fairy dust to drive post-closing value.”

Karla Nelson: Yeah, definitely tracking with you there. So what would your tips on the seller side be, right? Because again, I had stated 90% of people sell because they’re just burnt out and they’re done and as much as it’s going to probably be a buyer market for the next six, 12, 18 months-

Andrew Sherman: It will be. It will, I’m certain of that. It will be.

Karla Nelson: So what-

Andrew Sherman: Except in a few areas. I mean, just before we get into your question, just so that I don’t … If you’re thinking of selling your business and you’re listening to this podcast, I don’t want you to get too, too depressed, plus we’re about to talk about you next, but there are certain sectors like healthcare, like cyber security and a few others, that yes, it will still be a buyer’s market, but you, as a seller, in an up ticking industry, will not feel that valuation down bump as much as somebody that’s in hospitality or travel or tourism or one of the industries that’s been really, really, really beat up.

Karla Nelson: Definitely. Definitely the travel.

Andrew Sherman: Yes, definitely the travel.

Karla Nelson: Everybody’s got to stay at home, you’re not going to see much travel spending, right?

Andrew Sherman: No, no. Travel and tourism probably has taken it as hard as restaurant and hospitality, but at least even with restaurant and hospitality, a number of restaurants have done well with take out and delivery, they’ve turned themselves into retail groceries. You know, with traveling tourism, you don’t really have much of a plan B available to you the way that even the restaurant industry has managed to keep its head above water with certain plan B’s and pivots.

So let me address a few tips for the seller before we run out of runway. Number one, one of the first things that you’re going to do is your go-to-market strategy includes the preparation of an offering memorandum or a CIM, a confidential information memorandum, or at least a cool, killer PowerPoint. I mean, really think through … The days in a seller’s market … Think of it as like selling a house, right? If it’s a hot seller’s market, yeah, put your house up for sale and it’s going to be gone a day later because you’re in a good neighborhood. You don’t have to fix the leaky bathroom, you don’t have to put new wallpaper, you don’t have to do-

Karla Nelson: You don’t have to stage it. Make everything look pretty.

Andrew Sherman: It’s a hot market and there’s going to be 10 offers for your house. You know, my wife and I were lucky enough to sell a house at the top of a seller’s market and we had a firm offer in before it was even listed on MLS and it was the easiest process ever. But in a buyer’s market, you got to dress up the cow, you got to put makeup on her, eyeliner, a nice hat and a bonnet, and you’re going to have to take every single step to make that house as perfect as possible. So if you’re selling into a buyer’s market, you want to look around your company and say, “What staging am I going to have to do to make … What problems do I need to fix?” Now if you burnout, you may say, “Hey, I’m selling sort of as is, let the buyer beware.” But if you do that, you’re just not going to fetch much of a price.

So one of the decisions you have to make is, what things are you willing to fix and do you have time to fix them, relative to what a buyer will pay? A second thing that is very important, I’ve been thinking about this this morning before our podcast, due diligence is going to change. You know, due diligence is already changed, the types of risk areas. You know, if I were a buyer of a company right now, I’d be asking questions like, “Did you have an emergency preparedness plan in place?” I mean, “What did you do when the crisis … Did you sit there like a deer in the headlights? Did you at least try and adapt? Did you have a strategic planning meeting a year ago that said, ‘What if there’s a terrorist attack or a global pandemic or some terrible strain of the flu?'” Which is, you know, what this is.

I mean, “Did you have any foresight to protect your business and have a plan B and ability to pivot?” Because if you were the deer in the headlights, it’s not going to impress your buyers. If you could at least say to buyers, “Hey, I built a business model that’s adaptable and flexible enough to be responsive to an emergency and I did my best even though I’m burned out or even though I have health issues or even though I’m getting old.” Remember we have all those aging baby boomers, like you said at the beginning of the show. Did these companies show the foresight to put a plan in place? Because remember, if I’m a buyer of those companies, I’m going to want to know that those companies are capable of morphing if this thing comes back or some other event comes back-

Karla Nelson: Something else happens.

Andrew Sherman: … or some event of bio-terrorism. I want to know that what I’m buying is flexible enough. Think of it at back to selling a house. If the house is built of bricks and a hurricane came through and the hurricane barely touched the house, then I’m demonstrating to a buyer that my house is rock solid, and if another hurricane comes, it’s likely to have the same effect. But if my house is built from sticks and wood and was blown away by the hurricane, then how much money am I really going to be able to get for it? Or how much assurance, if I rebuild it with sticks, how much assurance can I give to a buyer that it won’t get blown away again when the next hurricane comes, because guess what? If you’re in a hurricane area, hurricanes are going to come.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Look, we can learn even more from the three little pigs.

Andrew Sherman: I know. Very much. It really is three little pigs, that’s exactly right.

Karla Nelson: It really is when you look at it and go … Well I love it. Like thinking about the intangible assets, the tangible assets, market cap versus enterprise value, which is, again, two sides of the same coin, but it’s a really thin coin. And then looking at, from the buyer or seller’s side on the acquisition aspect of it, and then also on the selling aspect. What can you do in order to have them feel that your company has staying power, that you can pivot, that you are flexible, that you thought about those things? I mean, that’s awesome.

Andrew Sherman: Exactly. And the other thing that’s going to come up is what we talked about in the joint podcast with Alaina, which I certainly would refer any listeners of this one to listen to, if you haven’t already. In that podcast we did talk about culture and engagement and the impact of those things. I just had a radio interview earlier in the day where the interviewer asked me about the impact of culture, the impact of COVID-19 on culture, and then ultimately how did the impact of COVID-19 on culture affect enterprise value. And that’s exactly what we’re talking about here is, if your culture was already weak and now everyone’s working from home and connecting via Zoom, that’s not helping your culture. I mean, that’s only making it weaker, and if your culture is weaker, then your innovation is weaker, your productivity is weaker, your customer service is weaker, your brand is diluted. And guess what? None of those things make you fetch a higher purchase price if you’re on the sell side.

So you have an additional challenge now, as a business leader, of protecting the most important asset you have, which is your brand and your culture, at a time when brand and culture has taken a beating, as we adjust to a work-from-home economy, at least for the short and possibly medium term.

Karla Nelson: Absolutely, cannot agree with you more. And it can bring you together, right? Or it can completely displace your entire team, depending on where you started from.

Andrew Sherman: Exactly.

Karla Nelson: Well this-

Andrew Sherman: I’ve got one more important seller tip and then I’ll go wherever you want to go with your next question.

Karla Nelson: You got it.

Andrew Sherman: And that is, there’s a notion in M&A for sellers called a recast. A recast. And a recast is when a seller sits down and redoes their financials around how the entity would perform in the arms of the buyer. So if I’m a small business and I’ve been running my kid’s private school and two of my cars and my country club all through the business and that’s been depressing my EBITDA, I back those expenses out to show the re-casted EBITDA, so that a buyer gets a true picture of what my EBITDA would be if I wasn’t loading it up like many small businesses with personal expenses.

Karla Nelson: Yep.

Andrew Sherman: So putting aside the tax consequences of that, it’s reality. So now I’ve been playing around in my head with this idea of a COVID-19 recast, okay? So if I were a seller in 2021 and I was looking at my 2020 expenses and I was saying, “Hey, wait a second, is there anything weird here?” Like I had to buy everyone a second laptop or I had to do this or I had to do that or I had to buy more insurance or is there any COVID-19 expense item that I should be including in my 2021 recast as things normalize? And I don’t really have the answer to that question yet, but I at least am smart enough to ask the question.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, well that’d be interesting to see how finance organizations look at that.

Andrew Sherman: I think the answer is yes.

Karla Nelson: I think the answer is yes.

Andrew Sherman: And the same applies … One of the other things that buyers of course are always very interested in is, everyone asks, “What’s the health of your pipeline? What’s the work you have in the waterfall? What work is coming down the road that is relevant to the price I ultimately pay for your business?” Well, for many companies, right now your pipeline is not terribly impressive. This is not a time where people are lined up at the door to buy non-essential products and services.

So if you are selling into 2021, as an example, and your pipeline, your cupboard if you will, is looking kind of empty, you may want to try and recast that a bit and say, “Had it not been for COVID-19, my pipeline would be this much full, and I have no doubt that we’d be able to restore that pipeline as things normalize.” Because if at the time I open your cupboard, your cupboard is bare, I’m going to make valuation decisions around the bare cupboard. If by the time I open your cupboard you’ve begun to restock new projects in the pipeline, then at least maybe I’ll give you some valuation credit for those.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, that’ll be interesting on the buyer side, the seller side, and the financing side, right?

Andrew Sherman: Exactly. Exactly.

Karla Nelson: Well, as always-

Andrew Sherman: I think there’s some interesting questions that-

Karla Nelson: Yeah, there are. We have to-

Andrew Sherman: M&A will change.

Karla Nelson: … definitely continue this conversation. Andrew, as always, it’s awesome to have you on the show. I love the different facets that you look at and ask these amazing questions. And until next time, sir, thank you so much.