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How to Lead Like a Boss (1 of 4)

How To Lead Like a Boss (1 of 4) with Kevin Nothstine

How to Lead Like a Boss (1 of 4)

How To Lead Like a Boss (1 of 4) with Kevin Nothstine

Did you know there are seven sources of your authority? In this episode, we dig into what those sources are and how to tap into them.

Kevin Nothstine is a career military and professional pilot with thousands of hours flying tactical airlift and tactical surveillance missions in training and combat all around the world.  He has also instructed countless aviators from basic pilot skills to combat aircrew who “find the bad guys and tell the good guys where they are.”

The 7 sources of power…

  • Legitimate Power
  • Expert Power
  • Information Power
  • Referent Power
  • Coercive Power
  • Reward Power
  • Connection Power

Listen to the podcast here:

Listen in as Karla and Kevin discuss how to Lead Like a Boss (1 of 4)

Karla Nelson: And welcome to the People Catalyst Podcast, Mr. Kevin Nothstine.

Kevin Nothstine: Hello Karla, happy to be here.

Karla Nelson: We’re happy to have you sir. This is really going to be a fun podcast and as you guys may have known, Kevin has been on the podcast a couple of times before. Kevin is one of our co-founders at the People Catalyst and he is a prover shaker. That means he is mainly a prover but he has a little bit of a secondary shaker in his core nature of work and Kevin spent 21 years as an officer in the military, specifically in the Air Force and currently still teaches some special ops peer crew in the same mission that he flew in Afghanistan and Iraq. So he’s also been an instructor pilot so although he’s a master trainer with the People Catalyst he is, I’ll tell ya, training somebody on a combat mission that basically this mission is like to find the bad guys and tell the good guys where they are.

So like the Bin Laden raids where they have what they call “The Stack” all the way from what they call the MC-12 to the top to the boots on the ground and there could be many different aircraft and then they get there early and they do a whole bunch of secret stuff that I have no idea, but I know that it’s pretty intense and they have some of the best training ever. And a lot of times when we take a look at training, who’s the best at training? The military is amazing. Their job, Kevin’s job for years and years was to go to work and train and they simulate training over and over again because in business most of the time, I would venture to say, it’s not life or death. You guys have to figure out how to make sure people don’t die and also that you know, mistakes are going to happen and when they do they’re really, really significant in his line of work.

So a lot of times we like to take a look at the military’s training because it is so good and then apply that to business. And what we’re going to talk about here today is how to lead like a boss. And so there are… what was the actual military name, I can’t remember?

Kevin Nothstine: Where we’re pulling this from is a thing called crew resource management. But this particular section of it, the military title for this is aircraft commander authority power basis. So that’s their long handle.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Say that three times fast. We’re just going with how to lead like a boss.

Kevin Nothstine: I like it. I like it.

Karla Nelson: And there are seven sources of this authority.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, definitely. And there’s parallels between how we teach this in the military and what’s happens in the civilian world as you’re going to see throughout the day here, throughout this podcast. So first one we’re just going to talk about is a very obvious part of authority and what this is where your authority comes from as a leader or as a boss. The training we do in the military, this is as an aircraft commander, as somebody that’s leading a crew to go and accomplish a mission. And wherever you have that crew, you’re going to have several people, depending upon the size of your crew, it can be anything from two up to, I’ve seen some aircraft that have a crew of 70.

In one aircraft at one time, you have one person that’s in control of that. Well that one person that’s in control of it, in the military, it’s very obvious, when we set those crew orders, we identify the leader and on the actual orders they have a little place for codes and they put the A code next to that leader. And that A code says, “Okay, for this sortie this is the person who is the commander, the aircraft commander up there.” And there’s a lot of power in that word commander because in the military it’s actually legal, it’s your legal authority of it. But once you have that A code, once you have that legal authority, well what we refer to that is legitimate authority and the legitimate authority-

Karla Nelson: So now let me just say, now we’re going into the first of the seven steps, right? Is that where you’re bleeding necessary?

Kevin Nothstine: Yes.

Karla Nelson: Okay, just wanted to confirm. I’m trying to soak it all in and also learn as we go because I think this is not only amazing and fantastic, but authority is a very important thing in business. And of course in military it’s even more critical. And so go ahead Kevin. Tell us about this legitimate authority.

Kevin Nothstine: And you’re exactly right. As a prover, I do like to jump into the details very quickly. So thank you for putting that construct on that context for us.

Karla Nelson: Well, and this is like second nature for you, you’ve been utilizing crew resource management for the better part of 25 years. So it would make sense that what is easy and just you can flow through for you is definitely… And it is details, my goodness, I’ve never seen training in such detail, it’s incredible in the military. I mean, it doesn’t matter if you’re pushing papers or flying an aircraft, there’s a lot of rules to follow.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh yes, very much so. But yeah, you’re right. And just a little bit more context on this, we’re going to talk about these seven sources of your authority, that Karla had mentioned. Now you flow in and out of these different sources of authority and we’ll probably talk about this at the end just a little bit more, but there are these different ways you have authority, but as a good leader, you have to understand that your leadership ability comes from all of these. And there are different times where each one is a good tool to use as part of your toolkit.

Karla Nelson: And they can be overused and underused.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. On both of them. So yeah. Thank you. So that puts it a lot more in context, what you’re talking about. Now of those seven that first that we started to mention is that legitimate authority and that is when your power is based on the position held by the leader, that’s when it comes in and tell you that, “Okay, this person, they write the check or they’re the ones that are identified as the boss.” So they have that position of authority. So when they speak, somebody’s going to listen to them, they’re going to have that influence over their team by the fact that they are the identified leader.

Karla Nelson: Interesting. You know what this makes me think of? Every meeting that a CEO walks into and derails everything, which we’ve actually happened to have that happen to us in the beginning of training so many times that we had to come up with these 10 rules to follow and the agenda doesn’t even get derailed with the CEO, they have to trust the process as well. And Kevin, you’ll appreciate this, this was with a military group and they were working with the government and they are contracted with the government but this very, very, very, high authority, big kind of ego group of people. And they have us sit down and kind of strategize how they’re going to deliver a cut of a third of all of their pay and still keep the entire team intact. And so, of course, the leadership just wanted to walk in and say, “Here you go, we’re going to cut your pay by a third. Good luck.” How’s that going to work out? Right? And so we’re like, “No, there’s a better way to do this. Let them solve their own problem.”

And so definitely legitimate authority is important. I would venture to say in the military it’s really important, but then also the balance of that is to say that just because you have the authority, you have to think about how you’re delivering different things at different times in different ways. I mean there’s only one answer to this problem, but if you walk in and you’ve already solved it because you’re put in authority there and you just tell somebody instead of utilizing the team to come about certain answers, it just can go both ways on these things, right? So you can under use it and over use it. And I think it’s that balance of the two and knowing when to use it that there’s a lot that goes into that.

Kevin Nothstine:

Yeah, definitely. And it’s easy to see as a parent as well, when you have your child doing something, how many times have we heard, “Well go and do this.” And these kids says, “Why?”

“Because I’m the parent. I said, so.” Well you just practiced legitimate authority.

Karla Nelson: I hated that one as a child, but it’s true. Right? And your parent does need that authority. At the same time, you have to balance the two out for sure. Okay, let’s move on to the next one. I’m excited.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Next one. A good one here is a your expert authority and this is the fact that you can have influence over a group of people, by the fact that you are the expert in any given area. Your skill or your knowledge, when you know something better than anybody else in the room that now gives you that respect and that authority and that power base to be able to influence your team.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, and is a lot of training companies are built on what somebody knows about a certain problem and how to solve it. So, for sure, That’s definitely…

Kevin Nothstine: When you talking about the training companies, that really does highlight the fact that you know, as a leader, if you don’t have the expertise in an area, well, where can you get it from? Well, you can bring in somebody else to help out if you don’t have that expert power, if you don’t have the that authority with a team. But the fact that you bring them in, that’s a great way of exercising your expert authority. It could also be you acknowledging the fact of your lack of expertise.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, that’s a good point. Both ways. On all of these it seems so far. All right. What’s the next one?

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, next one is information authority. Okay. You can also have influence, just the fact that you are in possession of or you have access to some information that everybody else perceives as something of value. If you know something that’s going on, if you know something that’s happening in your culture or something is happening with your company or if you’re in touch with the right people with the right information, other people will acknowledge you as a higher authority figure just because of the fact that you do have that piece of information and they would like to be able to have access to your information sources.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, so you know what’s going on in the company. You know where all the… Movement, where we going?

Kevin Nothstine: Skeletons are buried.

Karla Nelson: I was going to say that and I thought, “Should I say that?” That’s kind of true though, right? Because you’re balancing, for instance, when we were working with mid market companies and building them up to sell, one of the biggest things here was, and it’s how actually I met Allen, and you would go into this company and they’re like, “Why are you here?” Well, you can’t deliver to them, “Hey, we’re here to build this company up to sell in a couple of years.” Because, hello, they’re going to wonder if they’re going to have a job next week. Right? Which the goal almost never was to reduce the amount of people that were in the company, but what happens is then now, as the leader, the trainer, the person walking into it, you actually do have a lot of “information authority” instantly, even though, then you have to balance it out with some of these other ones you talked about expert authority.

I will probably get to other ones as far as like building relationship because that’s why we would then run the process to figure out who was on the team and what pieces of work they could do in order to build this company up. But it was interesting because I never thought about information authority because now all of a sudden they’re like, “Oh they’re sitting down with the leadership and they’re not in the company per se.” And that really did lend a lot of authority like, “Who is this person that they brought in?” Not only expert but information, like you’re the one who knows what’s going on around this place. Interesting.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, definitely. And then the next one on this one, now in the military, they like to call this one reference authority. I don’t like that name at all. I think a better name for this is really influence, you have your influence authority. And what that refers to is just the fact, personality traits. Are you a likable kind of person? Do you pass the beer test? And you know that’s going to give you some authority.

Karla Nelson: Who ever came up with that, the beer test? I think that was that Dennis

Kevin Nothstine: Or I guess we’re assuming everybody knows what the beer test is. So what’s the beer test?

Karla Nelson: The beer test is, do I want to have a drink on Friday with you after work?

Kevin Nothstine: It’s that simple. And you know what? If it’s somebody that you can get along with that is a source of authority that you can have. And I’ve got a really good story on this, just kind of showing leadership, if we’ve got the time for it?

Karla Nelson: Sure. Yeah, go ahead.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Well I was at an organization, this is overseas and as part of the military of course, this is a major part of my background, and we had a real culture problem at this one base where I was stationed and it came from just the mindset of the senior leaders that were practicing their legitimate authority and these senior leaders, for lack of a better term, it could be called a bit of an elitist and somebody that he did not pass the beer test. In fact, he was very stringent in the fact that he told all of the leaders right beneath him that they will not hang out or have a beer with the lower ranking people because that promoted fraternization and fraternization is wrong. And that was their mindset. So in this environment we got to the point we’re having monthly meetings and they’re like, “You know what, we have a culture problem, so let’s have a meeting once a month and bring everybody in and let’s talk about the stuff that might be nice and that’s going to help our culture.”

Now what’s really funny is how they conducted this meeting. The senior leader, the Colonel that was in charge of the whole base, so several thousand people under this guy, equivalent of a CEO of a very large corporation would hold this meeting once a month with all the officers. So you have 10% of the people, the officers or the leadership of the whole base and bring them all together and they’d all be in the room and they had it at the officer’s club at a ballroom right next to the officer’s club, so it’s next to the bar. And the first thing they would do is everybody’s in the room waiting for the senior leader to walk in. And we walked in, it was a standard military type thing where he would come in the same door and he’d open the door and somebody would call the room to attention and everybody would pop to attention and standing there nice and rigid and looking straight ahead. And then he would walk from the back of the room all the way up the center aisle through the crowd and wait until he was all the way at the front of the room. And then he would tell everybody, “Take your seats.” And everybody would take a seat.

And then they would go into thing and somebody would try and do something funny or whatever the presentation for the month was, but just right there, the beginning of it was just a culture crusher. And then when the meeting ended and they would schedule them on Friday afternoons, it’d end at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon at the officer’s club…

Karla Nelson: Yeah, because you put the meeting on Friday, then it makes it fun and we can solve a culture issue. It’s ridiculous.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, exactly. And what happened as soon as the meeting’s done at 4:00 on a Friday afternoon with everybody at the officer’s club, they would scurry like rats fleeing a sinking ship.

Karla Nelson: That’s a new one. I haven’t heard that one before.

Kevin Nothstine: Five minutes after the meeting was done, the place was a ghost town and the couple hundred people that were there are now disappeared. Nobody wanted to hang out and nobody wanted to do anything. And they’re intent of trying to work on the culture, they actually hurt their initial intent with that. Well, the reason I tell that one, that’s the negative aspect, but we had a good leader in there, a new Vice Wing Commander, the number two guy that came in. Without giving his name, he went by PJ, we’ll call him PJ.

Well, on one of these meetings, the senior leader, they Colonel that set all this up, wasn’t there. He wasn’t going to be there that day, he was traveling, and PJ was going to be the senior leader on this particular meeting. So everybody’s in the room, they’re waiting for the normal thing and they’ve got somebody stationed by the back door, so as soon as PJ would walk in the door, they’d call the room to attention, everything. Well, PJ knew a little bit more about culture and had an understanding and he snuck in through a different door. So it’d be like your COO sneaking in through an entirely different door and he comes in, snakes in and puts his head around the corner and he yells out to the room, “Hey! We’re going to get started in about five minutes here, but before we get started, I’m going to go to the bar and grab a beer and if anybody wants to join me, you’re welcome to.”

Karla Nelson: The only difference is I’m not sure that you probably want to serve beer at a meeting that was on the clock in the private sector. It’s one of the cool things about the military though.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. But it’s a Friday afternoon and look at how many times when you go to a conference or something and how many times they have alcohol there at the conference. But it is-

Karla Nelson: So tell me then, how did everybody react?

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, this was the funny part. All the younger guys, the lieutenants and captains, all the young guys are like, “Oh, we can do that. All right, it sounds like a good idea,” And they headed over and they go walk into the bar, “This is good.” All of the more senior folk that had been around for a year or two and had seen the culture were looking at each other confused, like, “What? Can we do that? Is this a trick? Is this a trap? What’s going on here? I’m not sure if we can do this.”

Karla Nelson: I bet you that was funny. He sounds like fun, I’d love to meet him.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, he was a great guy, just an outstanding individual. Just a really good leader, and he understood the influence and that influence authority that you have on an organization and everybody respected him for that.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, just somebody that you like, that’s likable, that wants to get things done, but not trip over themselves along the way.

Kevin Nothstine: And that truly was the definition of the beer test with him.

Karla Nelson: Cool. Okay. What’s next?

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Next one is a coercive power. Now this is one that normally we can associate this with the negative parts. The coercive power or coercive authority, it’s your ability to influence people because you can punish them. You can give them some type of punishment that’s-.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Like fire him?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. You can fire them or give them a bad review or something…

Karla Nelson: Demote?

Kevin Nothstine: Right. Exactly. All those types of things. And I kind of liken this one, it is a power that as a leader that sometimes, unfortunately, you have to use. Now I like to liken this one to a flying analogy. When you’re flying an airplane and you’re coming in and you’re trying to find a runway and you’re in the weather so you can’t see the ground and you have instruments that are telling you where to go. Well, you want to be on a specific track, you want to be on on course, on glide path is what we call it. And that’s left and right and up and down and the right speed and everything as you’re coming in to find the runway so that you can land safely when you pop out of the weather. Now, if you get a little bit off course, you want to hear somebody saying, “Hey, you’re a little bit off course. You need to get back on the right course here.” And then if you get a little further off course, “Hey, you’re well off course, you need to correct ‘this much’ back over.” Then the ultimate, the coercive power on this is, “Hey, you’re well out of course, your too far, I’ve got the airplane, I’m going to take it away from you and we’re going to go around and try this again.”

Karla Nelson: Yeah.

Kevin Nothstine: And that’s that…

Karla Nelson: I could see how that would be really important to understand and balance that one. It’s like you don’t want to be… They have to learn, right? Especially, if it’s in an instructor situation. At the same time, so you have to let them get a little off path, but then when it’s dangerous, you have to step in then.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, but it’s the same thing in business. In business, if somebody is not performing where you want them to be and your other sources of power are not influencing them to be able to accomplish what you want done, then sometimes you do need to use the stick in the carrot and stick approach of leadership.

Karla Nelson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Got it. All right. What’s the next one?

Kevin Nothstine: Well, the next one is the carrot. It’s actually…

Karla Nelson: First we went with the stick, now the carrot.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. The carrot. And that’s your reward authority. And by having the ability to reward somebody, it’s the opposite of the coercive, you can reward them with promotions, you can reward, reward them with bonuses. If you have that ability to provide a reward for something…

Karla Nelson: Yeah. Even recognition is a good one there.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. Yes. Very much so.

Karla Nelson: Because, as a leader, really recognizing… And in learning the Hoodoo method and all the different types of work that we do with companies so many times, and I’m really, really, really guilty this because I am uber mover and I am a DI internally and an ID externally when I’m working with customers. So you can leave dead bodies behind you and all sometimes people need is to be recognized for what they’re great at. For whatever reason, in society, we focus on what’s negative and what’s bad about, for instance, a shaker. I could tell you 10 words we call them that are negative words. And the only positive word I’ve ever heard is shaker, right? Because what do we call them? Squirrel.

In the military it’s chief idea fairy. And we call them, “Gosh, your head’s always in the clouds.” And so what happens is that we’re focusing on when somebody isn’t instead of just recognizing them for what they are. People, if you can tap into that and identify what they’re great at and bring that reward piece out, they will actually take that over pay. I can’t remember what the stats are, it’s been a long time since I looked at it, but especially the younger generation, the millennials.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, we could have a whole conversation on that. Just you start talking Maslow’s Needs Hierarchy and if somebody has already met their security needs or their safety needs and they’re looking for those higher levels of acknowledgement, then yes, there’s a lot of ways that you can reward somebody.

Karla Nelson: Yeah, very cool stuff. I love that one. All right. What’s next?

Kevin Nothstine: Well the next one is actually another way that you can reward somebody, but it’s a very specific kind of thing and we like to call this connection authority. And what that is…

Karla Nelson: Ooh, I think I like that one.

Kevin Nothstine: Oh, you’re definitely going to like this one, you have this one in spades and I’m going to tell somebody about your ability on this. Now what this one is, by the connections that you have, you have authority with a group of people if they perceive those connections as power for them. If they want access to your friends, you know certain people and they want to know those people, well by knowing you, they can do that. You can be a channel. You know, in LinkedIn they practice this. “Oh, are you a first connection or a second connection with somebody?” And it tells you, “Oh, I’m connected to this person and this…” You know, if you look somebody up on LinkedIn and it’ll say, “Oh, you have 11 mutual friends.” Ah, if you want to know that second a level of person, then you look at one of those connections between the two of you and you say, “All right, I want to work with this person.” And that gives you that connection authority in a group of people.

Karla Nelson: Good stuff. I love that one. And by the way, a friend of mine, I don’t need to do this, jeez louise, connection authority, but she wrote the book How to be a Power Connector and it ended up being a bestseller and she’s fantastic. Her name is Judy Robinett. If you want to read a great book on connection authority, she was an introvert and learned this later on in life and has just gone on to crush it. Her new book is Cracking the Funding Code too because she’s worked with a lot of startups, raised capital for those startups. So again, How to be a Power Connector, great book if you want to discuss connection authority. I think we could do an entire podcast on just that authority. Maybe we will take a look at these and see how we can break them down to give different pieces and points of how to balance yourself through that. Because connection authority is absolutely one of the most powerful and probably the easiest one of these, which is, “Hey, I just took the time out…”

Kevin Nothstine: The easiest for you.

Karla Nelson: Say that again.

Kevin Nothstine: The easiest for you.

Karla Nelson: Oh that’s a good point. Oh, that’s so… And then I’m going to send you to another book by Matthew Pollard, which is Introvert’s Edge and he talks about introverts thinking that they can’t sell because they’re introverted and he says use a process. And that’s exactly what is in Judy’s book is a process for connection. Which I think you’re right, for me, it’s second nature, right? So it’s easy, it happens and my goodness, I just did it on accident right now talking about it. Right?

Kevin Nothstine: I’ve got to tell a little story with you just to really bring this in. And this can be a teaser too because we can deep dive into any of these subjects and I know you really would love to deep dive into this one, but I’m going to tell just a surface story just to teaser on this about you. Okay?

Karla Nelson: Okay, great.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, well just a little background on when this story happened, you know I was in the military for 21 years and my last two years I was was training people in this new mission in the Air Force, this new aircraft. And we had 16 new students, in a three or four months syllabus, 16 new students every Monday for two years.

Karla Nelson: Wow. That’s a lot.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes.

Karla Nelson: For what you guys go through, I mean the amount of training guys that they go through to be a aircraft commander, let alone… and Kevin’s instructor as well, so he instructs all the other air crew on what to do. It’s intense.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, a big lesson that I learned from those two years, now, we brought people from all across the Air Force and just to show an example, it’s very different if you have somebody that’s flying a cargo plane or an aerial refueler versus somebody that’s flying an F-35 or F-22 fighter plane. Those are very different mindsets and that have been trained different ways. And we had students from every platform across the military that would come together and then we’d try to get them to fly as a team on this one new aircraft. And I learned one of the most important things that every time I would sit down with a group of students or have a meeting with people, the most important part of that meeting was the introductions. And in that introduction of learning their background and learning who they are. Now, we’re going to tie this into that connection authority. Now, I had been doing that for a couple of years and then I met Karla and I ended up going to a meeting with Karla and she started it off, we had a couple of good friends of ours, Adam Ferling and Jim Pelli and myself and some others sitting around the table and we’d never met before, but Karla was sitting there and she was the glue that brought us together being the connector.

Karla Nelson: No. Imagine that we were attending a training? And I actually was facilitating that training, but I try to learn and train just as much as everyone else. We need it, we need it. Okay, go ahead. I’m still wondering what you’re going to say.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, the way that we sorted this out, and we were actually this was after the training or a little bit more and we’re sitting around actually having a glass of wine, passing the beer test there, and before we did anything at all Karla started it off and she went around the table and said, “Hey, you guys haven’t hung out before. Let me go around and I’m going to introduce who you are.” And she talked about me and talking about my time in the military and after she talked about me, I’m like, “Holy cow, who are you talking to, I want to meet this guy? He sounds pretty awesome.”

Karla Nelson: That’s because what you do, you don’t think it’s so cool, but everybody is super cool in their own right, usually, and have done some amazing things. And the last person who wants to say it is the person that you asked to do the introduction to.

Kevin Nothstine: And she went around the table and each person just… Now, it was a good group of guys. Well, while I say that now and why do I believe that? Because Karla told me. Karla had that influence, that connection. But she sat there and said, “Oh, this guy, he started designing websites for companies when he was 13 years old.” And Oh by the way, this gentleman was old enough that was in the dawn of websites and he contacted a ski company out of the blue and told them, “Hey, you need to do this on your website, it’ll make it better.” And they hired the guy they didn’t know he is 13 years old.

Karla Nelson: That was a good one. And that’s awesome and it’s-

Kevin Nothstine: So it was just everybody. And you were able to build that authority of yours by your connection. And that is a true power that somebody can have to get influence over a team.

Karla Nelson: Yeah. And it’s super cool. I mean I know it’s easy for me and I really enjoy people and everybody is different. However, that skill, if you can use it, is not only an amazing powerful skill to build authority, just the trust comes with that authority as well. And when people know, it’s the know, like, and trust piece. And if you’re interested in others then they find you interesting. So that’s awesome. Well I think we’re going to have to wrap it up on that last one, that was really super cool. I can’t believe that there’s actual training in the military that talks about connection authority. That’s awesome. I love it. And again, those two books, How to be a Power Connector and Introvert’s Edge are both really great books on how to do that. Especially if you are, I’m obviously an extrovert, but if you are not, because you can still build your network and your authority when you’re not as extroverted.

Kevin Nothstine: I’m going to try my hand at that connection in the introduction, very briefly, we talked about Judy Robinett, she’s an outstanding author and a bestseller and everything else. Judy started out, she drew up and I think she’s still listed to this day in a town in rural Montana, a town of 300 people.

Karla Nelson: Oh no, that’s where she grew up. She between Idaho and really she was in Utah in Salt Lake, but yeah, her home town was the hometown of Napoleon Dynamite. What a great story that is. That’s funny. Yep, exactly. And she didn’t launch her first company, I don’t think, until she was like 40, she opened a restaurant and it almost went under. And it’s a great story, it’s actually how she starts out her book. Well, Kevin, this was so awesome. Fantastic. Thank you so much for bringing your brilliance here on the podcast today with How To Lead Like a Boss.