How to Lead Like a Boss (3 of 4)

The Next 5 Human Factors Traps

In part three of this series “How to Lead Like a Boss,” we discuss how to work as a team like a boss. There are 10 “traps” in working with people and we discuss the last 5 this week.

If you missed Part 1 of this series, where we discussed the sources of leadership power, you can listen to it here.
Listen to Part 2 of the series here, where we discussed the first 5 traps in working with people.

The 10 Human Factors Traps in working with a team…

1. Excessive Professional Courtesy
2. Halo Effect
3. Passenger Syndrome
4. Hidden Agenda
5. Accommodation Syndrome
6. The Accident Zone Model
7. Strength Of An Idea
8. WHO-DO Method
9. Hazardous Attitudes
10. Error Chain

Listen to the podcast here:

Read along as Karla and Kevin discuss the last 5 Human Factors Traps…

Listen in as Karla and Kevin discuss how to lead like a boss (3 of 4)

Karla Nelson: And welcome to the People Catalysts Podcast, Mr. Kevin Nothstine.

Kevin Nothstine: Hello, hello.

Karla Nelson: Hello sir, how are you today?

Kevin Nothstine: I’m enjoying life-

Karla Nelson: Pretty fantastic. I’m really enjoyed this podcast series. So just to give all of our listeners a little bit of a background, we decided to have Kevin on the podcast to talk about the seven sources of authority and how to lead like a boss. We had so much fun, we decided to add on a couple of other podcasts and this is now a four part series. And the part two we just went through was, how to work as a team like a boss. And for today we are going to discuss and finish up. That was a total of 10 steps, so we had five more to go. We did five on the last podcast because it’s hard to take in all 10 in just a 25 minute session where we try to keep our podcasts app so they’re digestible from your drive, from home to work or wherever you’re headed.

So we’re going to finish up, how to work as a team, like a boss. And if you haven’t heard the previous two podcasts, just to let you know a little bit about Kevin Nothstine. He was an Officer in the Air Force for 21 years, he was active duty. He currently still teaches his special ops groups and aircrew how to fly the same mission that he flew in Afghanistan and Iraq. And basically these missions are how to find bad guys and tell the good guys where they are. So if you think about the bin Laden raids, they’re this thing called the stack and the MC-12 the particular plane that Kevin, instructs and teaches others on is at that top of the stack. He is also one of the co-founders and a master trainer of the People Catalysts. And so he lastly is a prover shaker, so he does have a secondary shaker but he leads with his prover. So thanks so much for your time today in joining us on the show.

Kevin Nothstine: It’s my pleasure. I love to teach and I greatly appreciate the opportunity to do that here on-

Karla Nelson: Awesome. Okay, let’s jump right into it. We already went through the first five. Did you want to go through the first five? Just a little bit of an overview just to give those who might not have listened to that podcast. We won’t go into depth but maybe just identify them and sum them up really quickly. If you want to go listen to the previous podcast, you can find it right there on the website and take it away, Kevin.

Kevin Nothstine: All right, thank you much. That’s as good idea to put it in some context. Now the big picture on what these are the special ops community calls this is, human factors traps and these are the traps that differently states if somebody can-

Karla Nelson: And we did this in on the other podcast, English. We came up with a couple of different names, I can’t remember what they were.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. These traps they’re mistakes that people can make. Its common mistakes that can lead to an unhealthy team. As Karla said, there’s 10 different ones and in the previous podcast we talked about those first five, they were excessive professional courtesy, which is basically saying, “That’s the boss and he said so therefore I’m not willing to challenge the boss.” And nobody’s willing to tell the emperor that he’s not wearing any clothes. That’s just the classic tale there. The next one was a halo effect and that was, “This person was outstanding over at this other position. So obviously he’s going to do a good job in whatever new position we put them in.” And well that doesn’t always happen the way that you hope it would. The third one then was the passenger’s syndrome or the copepod syndrome.

And that’s where somebody else has got it. Somebody else is doing a great job and if they are, it’s really easy just to sit back and coast and not be fully engaged with your job. And not have that employee engagement just because you have somebody else that is running with the ball. So that was the third one. The fourth one was the hidden agenda, and that hidden agenda is saying, “I’ve got something else in my mind, a reason when I’m making the decisions based on.” And it may not lead to the best decisions. You’re sitting there in the meeting and you’ve got your kid’s recital that you want to get to. So you’re willing to accept whatever they say just to get out of the meetings. So you can go watch your daughter go play the piano or something like that.

And then the last one is the accommodation syndrome and that’s what, “It’s really high risk business for us to go and do whatever event.” Buy a new building or buy a new business or something like that. And the first time you do it you’re like, “Wow, this is a lot of risk involved here.” And then it works. Okay, “Let’s do it again, let’s do it again.” And each iteration, each time you go and do that same thing, it’s just as risky but you don’t… You’re desensitized to how much risk happens on it over time. So we had good examples of those in the first podcast, so that’s the accommodation syndrome. That’s our first-

Karla Nelson: Awesome let’s jump right into number six.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, number six. And this one… Where that last one we just talked about the accommodation syndrome. That’s more of a strategic, that’s a long range and over time, “We’ve done it so many times and over the last couple of years we’ve done this. It could never bite us in the butt.” Okay, well this next one is called the accident zone model. And this is a little more tactical. This is more… “Okay, I’ve got this meeting that’s been going on, I don’t have any hidden agenda, so I’m willing to be in this meeting for the long haul.” But after two to three hours of being in this meeting. Well, fatigue starts to set in and you get tired-

Karla Nelson: Everyone’s been in that meeting.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. Our co-founder Alan, likes to put it, set meeting and where it’s like, “It’s 12 o’clock, it’s one o’clock, it’s two o’clock, it’s three o’clock, it’s three o’clock, it’s three o’clock.” And the clock doesn’t seem to move when you’re longer into the meeting. Well, when you get to that phase in flying airplanes after you’ve been flying a plane for three, four or five sometimes seven and nine hours or… Some of my friends and flown missions for 24 hours in the same. But when you’re in that meeting or you’re in that mission or you’re in the zone for that long, you’re going to get tired and you could very easily make mistakes as you grow into that-

Karla Nelson: Yeah. What that reminds me of is, are we going to come up with a different name for the accident zone model. It’s how fatigue and stress can make you make mistakes, there we go. We’ll, have to send that one into the air force. It reminds me of the story-

Kevin Nothstine: Spoken like a true prover.

Karla Nelson: It reminds me of the story that we went into… And we just love this story because it’s representative of every other stink in meeting everyone has been in and knows. Everyone always laughs when we teach and train this piece because they I believe they can’t change it so they just deal with it, right? And this is the meeting that Allen was the lead on and basically hired in an innovation meeting to sit there, be quiet and see what happens. And so that happened and it was like two and a half hours of ridiculousness and we always say it’s like a skeet shoot, right? Anybody ever seen skeet? Idea, bang, idea, bang, idea, bang, idea, bang. Just going back and forth and back and forth and Allen’s just sitting here, he’s dying in this meeting and all he’s doing is getting paid to be there and listen to it. 

And at the end of the meeting, the gentleman who hired us said, “Okay, so what’s the report?” In his report, that’s easy. He says, “37 to 36.” And the guy looks at Allen like, “Are you nuts? What are you talking about? 37 to 36, what report is that?” He goes, “There was 37 ideas, 36 of them got shut down, and everybody was so fatigued and tired from being in that meeting that they picked the most mediocre last idea that came up, so that they could escape from the meeting.”

Kevin Nothstine: Exactly. They were deep into the accident zone.

Karla Nelson: Yes.

Kevin Nothstine: And you think that, that idea actually had any chance of success.

Karla Nelson: And the other thing is, it’s interesting because when you think of it as flying an aircraft that… It’s super, you’re going to crash and you could kill everybody and yourself. But you think about that in corporate America and it affects even your relationships with other people. It affects doing those types of things affects, how people show up in a meeting rolling their eyes. Are they engaged? Are they not? I mean, that piece, if you’re not aware of all of those different stimulus that basically… Being tired and stressed and how it affects everything else. And so I always say culture is what you do. You can’t create culture. You can’t make them.

Kevin Nothstine: Well, to add to what you always say, it’s not what you do. It’s what you do every day.

Karla Nelson: Yes, exactly. Okay, this is great. Let’s move on to the next one.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. The next one. This is the strength of an idea.

Karla Nelson: That’s not too bad of the title.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. No, not at all. Unfortunately I don’t… I’ve got an example of this and we’re going to talk about and it’s not quite as fun to laugh at those. It’s a bit of a serious one that there’s sometimes serious you can have some rough things that happen. Now, first off what the strength of an idea is, and that’s when you have an idea and you’re like, “This is the way things are.” And you have just such a strong mindset that you think something is going on when it is not what’s going on at all and it’s so strong in your mind and you’re not willing to question your own thing. Everybody’s just, “Hey, let’s just go along. Yep. This is the idea, that’s what we’re going to run with.”

Karla Nelson: You never hear that in business.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. I’ve got a pretty rough example of this that you may have heard of. A lot of people have heard about this, a couple of years ago in Afghanistan we had a military aircraft called an AC-130 gunship and these planes are extremely good at… Well, what we like to call, bringing down the heat. They can unload some serious amount of heat on something and they can destroy the bad guys like you have never seen before. It’s a very impressive piece of machinery but when this particular example on this day. You may have heard about it, there was a hospital in Afghanistan and the crew on the AC-130 miss identified a hospital and there was some miscommunication. There is some miscommunication where the guys on the ground said, “Hey, we’re being pinned down, we’re in a fire fight, we’re taking fire from this location.” And there’s a lot of details that went into this.

Without getting into the details, the bottom line they were given one set of coordinates and said, “Hey, right here is where the hospital is” or excuse me. “Right here’s where the bad guys are.” And when you look at the coordinates, that they’re given a set of coordinates at one place, the bad guys were not exactly there was a little bit off where they were, the guys were being shot at that sent the coordinates. So you can miss, it’s really easy-

Karla Nelson: The previous one, the accident zone model, the stress was… the ability to handle stress well, in the stressful situation, right? And we just learned about that one.

Kevin Nothstine: You know what, that’s a great point because the guys on the ground had been there for four days. Four days of constant fire, constant things going on and now all of a sudden they’re taking fire from another location and it was in the middle of the city and sometimes in the city it can be hard to find things on the ground. And the aircraft, there had been some people shooting at them, so they were actually nine miles away. They’re a lot further away than you normally are and at lower altitude and it gets into some of the technicalities it can be hard to find things on the ground and they’re given coordinates that weren’t exactly right. But the coordinates they are given, unfortunately, the way the camera was looking from those coordinates in the background, they saw… Is at night and they saw this large lit up compound.

They’re like, “They’re taking fire from somewhere.” We’re looking at this area, what we see in our camera from the court and say gave us, is this nice compound that’s very lit up and really sticks out amongst everything else. That must be where the bad guys are. So then they get eyes on the compound and they described the compound of the guys on ground and said, yep, we see a T shaped building with a bunch of people and it’s pretty well lit. And the guys there goes, “Yeah, that’s your target, everybody there is bad they’re shooting at us.” And we teach people how to avoid this. And then they didn’t follow any of the standard protocol and this, they messed up a lot of things. So there were a whole bunch of the air

Karla Nelson: We had number six definitely drove number seven.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes, yes it did. That accidents on model of number six drove the strength of an idea in number seven. And their idea was that compound they’re looking at was the hostiles, it was the bad people. Well, it turned out it wasn’t hostiles, it was a hospital. And they did what the AC-130 gunship does well. Which is bring the heat and they… It’s unbelievable the amount of fire power that they brought onto there because they were being told by somebody incorrectly that, yes those were the bad guys, engage. You’re cleared to engage and take them all out. And unfortunately there were 37 people that died.

Karla Nelson: That’s horrible.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. And not just that, and not just the desk, but just the international things and then the briefing wasn’t present.

Karla Nelson: Well, and not only that, that first is an accident and it’s like, “Yeah, that’s why war stinks.” And in business of course that is definitely not to… I would almost venture to say never the case unless somebody gets hurt, right? People do get hurt at work and look, the crab fishermen’s, right? I mean, they probably could learn from this because that is the… What did they call that? The deadliest catch. It’s the most… More people die that are fishing crab in Alaska than any other job. And so in most things in corporate America, that’s not the case, but it’s still really important that you understand that the strength of an idea and really how that perception of what’s happening in your decision making and how those two things can really mess things up, right? In your business.

And that’s why you’re trained to this guy by the way, that’s why we’re going to the podcast series with this, is because there is no better training than the military. That’s what these guys do day in and day out. And look, they can even mess it up, right? So, and boy, four days on the ground, I don’t know they should have probably taken those guys or gotten them out somehow sooner than that. That would be so disorientated I don’t even know how I could do that. And then all of a sudden you’re already scared. You’re already disorientated and now all of a sudden calling in coordinates for getting help. Well, obviously you want to get help. It’s just a really tough situation. But so proactively we can learn from those exact things in business. Okay, onto-

Kevin Nothstine: Business is the strength of an idea but what you want to have to counteract that is a healthy skepticism. You look at something, we’re about to do some serious… Something that’s a serious nerve we’re going to go and purchase.

Karla Nelson: That’s our approvers.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes we’re going to buy $100 million office building. Yep. That’s the right thing to do. Let’s go and do it. Let’s go and do it. Let’s go and do it. The environmental survey said that there’s something going on with the foundation of this area. You know what? That’s what we’re going to do. Let’s run forward and do it. I had a friend of mine that happened to and he ended up over a year that he was tried to settle the environmental issues with a property they had to buy.

Karla Nelson: Exactly. So you got to do your due diligence, get your details. There’s this wonderful process we actually teach for the strength of an idea, if you want to check it out, it’s called the WHO-DO method. So, okay. Let’s move on to the next one, number eight.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay. Okay, this one’s the wild card. This is a little bit of a wild card of what are the traps or one of the mistakes people can make. And it’s just a sudden loss of judgment. And you know what? Every now and then and for lack of a better term, I’m sorry I’m going to use something that’s not completely comfortable but it’s the term you can call this a brainfart.

Karla Nelson: Everybody knows that. Hey, there you go we just renamed number eight.

Kevin Nothstine: Brainfart.

Karla Nelson: That’s funny.

Kevin Nothstine: Okay, and I will give you just a simple little example. This is your sudden loss of judgment where you’re going along fat, dumb and happy. Everything is okay but all of a sudden from out of the blue, you make a stupid decision and you just do something that’s not smart or somebody else does. Of course, you wouldn’t. I would never do that and I and Karla and all of our listeners here. No, they would never do something like that. But somebody you work with may go and do something like that. And I’ve had somebody that I worked with, I wasn’t on this flight but we had a pilot. He was flying from one country to another. He had a about a two hour flight over the water, so there’s no airports or anything else around and it’s actually a pretty benign, nothing’s going on. They got the autopilot on and the guy actually happened to be an Uber approver and he’s deepened thought and he’s analyzing what’s going on and he started thinking about things.

Well, he got so lost in his thoughts that he had a sudden loss of judgment and he started wondering about the system and he was going, what would happen if I did this? Well, what did he do? He’s at 28,000 feet over the water and he reached over and shut off all electrical systems on the plane.

Karla Nelson: What, on purpose?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, just out of blue. Kind of. When you look at it, it is… Yeah. He reached over and hit the switch and just turn it all off.

Karla Nelson: Well, think about how would you guys do simulations and trainings for certain things. I mean, he’s just sitting there, when you’re cruising up there, there’s not much to do and there’s plenty to look at. It’s pretty, but it looks all the same for the most part up there.

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. And he’s at over the ocean and just not a lot to see or do with his whole process on thoughts and reach over.

Karla Nelson: Did he have a co-pilot with him?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah. And I’m surprised he’s still alive after the cop-

Karla Nelson: So what are you doing? My gosh, did he recover from it? This is-

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah, yeah, they did. A Plane will still fly without electrical power, it’s going to keep flying with no problem.

Karla Nelson: Like a glider?

Kevin Nothstine: No, both engines are still running everything is still flying. The list is still being provided. Everything’s still working.

Karla Nelson: So you just flip the switch back?

Kevin Nothstine: Yeah.

Karla Nelson: Okay. That’s a good one.

Kevin Nothstine: So just that sudden loss of judgment and that’s… There’s a lot of things that can lead to sudden loss of judgment. That brings us to number nine on this list. And some of the things that can lead to that sudden loss of judgment are hazardous attitudes.

Karla Nelson: You know what? We could just call it a bad attitude. Bad hazardous.

Kevin Nothstine: Hazardous, yeah.

Karla Nelson: Hazardous attitude, it’s a bad attitude.

Kevin Nothstine: You got to show your vocabulary to them. All right and there’s a lot of hazardous attitudes there. And in fact, this is actually probably worthy of its own podcast of getting in depth into some of these, but just to highlight at the top level what they are. Just some of them anti-authority, lets just not dig at the boss. Resignation, well that’s e or is all about the resignation this is the way it is.

Karla Nelson: Well and that’s also engagement, right? If there’s so many things that could have somebody in that similar to passenger syndrome. Listen to me. My gosh, I’m learning a whole bunch of stuff on here. But it’s also… Everybody resigns for different reasons and that’s the crazy part about this, shakers resigned because it wasn’t their idea. Movers resigned because nothing’s going to happen anyway and I’m not in charge of being able to facilitate this with a process. Approvers resigned because there’s too much wrong with it and makers resigned because they got real work to do back at their desks. So what’s interesting, and we will wrap up the last podcast. I’m going through each of these because I think attitude, it’s like if you could fix that one, people are open to training, they’re open to learning more, they’re opening themselves.

 So this is a super important piece that we’ll be doing a full podcast on. Solutions for those different issues with bad attitudes because some people start out with a bad attitude because they have a bad attitude, okay? I would say most people end up with a bad attitude because of an experience that they’re having that is a negative experience. And then that leads to whenever… What were their percentages of the employee engagement when we did on the last podcast? 53% of employees are disengaged. 13 are actively disengaged. Basically working against you, thats 66% are unengaged. And 70% hate there job in the U.S. 89% worldwide. And that’s Gallup. That’s not me saying it. And so I think resignation is a really interesting and we’ll dive deeper definitely into that on the last podcast to give you some solutions for the attitude challenge. Because I think we label it attitude. Bad attitude but that could be an outcome, not somebody who’s natural. 

If you tell somebody, approver every single day, “You’re Debbie Downer and write a book about how to deal with them.” That they’re e or that they’re negative Nelly. All of these things, how do you think that’s going to make them feel? They’re not going to want to be engaged. You’re not allowing them to do the thing that they’re brilliant at, right?

Kevin Nothstine: I’m going to let the cat out of the bag just a little bit. And one of our future podcasts we’re going to be doing is something that we developed called the 10 rules of business.

Karla Nelson: That would be a good one to do.

Kevin Nothstine: Yes. And rule six without talking about the others right now, Rule six, your attitude determines how far you’ll go.

Karla Nelson: So true and that… My goodness, you know what I’m thinking of? Now going back to the first podcast in this series, we talked about influenced authority, and so go back to the first podcast if you listened to that. All of these pieces are all parts of a bigger puzzle and they drive every other piece. So we really encourage you, make sure you listen to all or parts of the podcasts that are created in a way that are easily digestible and you can see how they drive each other and also, how you can use the WHO-DO method within the situations to be able to. First, figure out how you get that authority, how you’re positioning yourself as a leader and moving between those different authorities and then the kind of authorities. And then going through how do you coordinate a team and make sure that you don’t make mistakes when you’re working a team. These are all designed to interact with the WHO-DO method. So go ahead, you have a couple more here on the attitude.

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. Yeah. Some of those bad attitudes or the hazardous attitudes, in vulnerability or a macho or machismo, impulsivity-

Karla Nelson: That never happens in the millitary-

Kevin Nothstine: Heck yeah. But my bad one, impulsivity.

Karla Nelson: Yes. And working with a prover and a thinker, by the way on both sides, the thinking aspect of it. The prover and shaker because they’re in their head. They can go. It’s funny because when we have meetings, Kevin in the Island and I frequently, we weekly have meetings. That is one thing I’m like, “Okay guys, focus I love you, but your skippity duda are skippiting out, right? It’s time to get something done. Which then leads to my biggest challenge with hazardous bad attitudes. I guess I call it hazardous that is good… Hazardous is actually better than bad because an attitude of wanting to get something done, you’re right. Mistakes can happen, but if I called it a bad attitude, I’m typically happy when I’m tried to get something done, it’s not a negative thing to me, right?

Kevin Nothstine: Now this last one that, what Karla is talking about there, get something done. Is the sixth hazardous or bad attitudes you can have and well, my bad one is impulsivity. A very dear friend, a member of our group it’s get there AIDAS. in flying airplanes. That’s, I’m here at location a and come hell or high water at the end of the day I want to be at location B and I want to just get there get it done. So inclined sometimes you’re willing to make that mistake, and the business world that get there AIDAS. We’re going to talk about this more in the next episode is I just want it done. We got to get across the finish line. Well, once he gets across the finish line, there’s another finish line and then another one but get there right. So Karla, did you know anything about that?

Karla Nelson: No, no, no, not at all. Just kidding, it’s my worst definitely on all of those. I would say I’m pretty great on the other ones but that one I have… Just today, I could probably tell you that, that… And the problem with, get there AIDAs that I’ve learned and we’ll go again, as Kevin said, deeper in the next podcast is when I realized I was a driver and I had get there AIDAS as a mover.

And so you could just leave dead bodies behind you if you don’t understand it and you don’t understand first the authority you have with people and then you’re a driver and you’re in charge and you have get their AIDAS, you could make all mistakes. It’s about engaging the team. We need everybody, we need you at different times but we need everybody and get there AIDAS is really… You’re going to see that way more with the mover and the maker but they have a different form of get there AIDAS, right? so yes, we’ll go deeper into the podcast because your attitude is super, super important and it drives all of these other things because when that’s not happening, you’re opening yourself up to listen, to hear and to learn. So, okay, take us home with number ten.

Kevin Nothstine: Karla, before we jump into that one, I do get to say you’re doing an outstanding job. I teach this for a living. Well, and The People Catalyst is one of the things I’ve done for many years that I’ve taught this for a living.

Karla Nelson: We can’t, couldn’t take. We couldn’t pry Kevin out of an airplane if we try and he has to include it in his in training. He loves training people, so yes. See, although we’ve had the opportunity to work with some of the military teams as well, which is super cool and overlays the WHO-DO method quite frequently with it. So yeah, we would not want to take Kevin out of that completely because he would not be happy.

Kevin Nothstine: It’s not what I do, it’s who I am.

Karla Nelson: That’s funny.

Kevin Nothstine: Now the reason I bring this up is I have taught these principles and concepts to hundreds, if not thousands of air crew members over the last 20 years that I’ve been teaching a lot of these concepts. And your ability to pick this up and connect the dots between the different aspects of this, of talking about if we connect this one with that one, it is truly impressive.

Karla Nelson: Thanks. It’s like I’m a trainer or something, right? Well, do you know what? And this is a good thing to actually talk about for a second is, you never want and think you know so much that you become a danger to yourself and everyone else around you. Because the more that I learn, the more that I learned that there’s so much I don’t know. And I think when it comes down to training, the military is definitely the detail on… I mean, they could kill you with the paper cuts, right?

But at the same time applying this, they’ve been doing this a long time. Their job is to train every single day. There is a lot that we can learn from that. And then also opening ourselves to continually learn and how we can do this and teach this to the teams so that they’d have a tool in their toolbox, right? So if somebody is having a hazardous attitude, that you can say, that’s like this and it looks like you’re doing this and let’s have a conversation around that because what happens is, it empowers everybody to keep everybody else in check so it’s super cool. I love it, thank you. I appreciate that.

Kevin Nothstine: No, my pleasure. Okay. And then the last one, error chain. Now, the error chain. Well, We’ve all seen-

Karla Nelson: So we are talking about like one mistake compiles on something else?

Kevin Nothstine: Exactly, exactly. And a good example of this as we talked earlier about that example of that C-130 in Afghanistan… The the AC-130. Do you think that was the only mistake of the night where the only thing that happened wrong was they miss identified that location. No, not at all. There is a whole series of mistakes or small little things or different things that add up over time and it, one mistake, and it can start from, “Hey, you did a wrong little checklist item here or on that same sorority on that one earlier in the day. One of their pieces of equipment, is a very important communications equipment, their satellite link back to their support group personnel broke. And so they lost a satellite link back home. And they also had some miscommunication that happened with the crew at another part and they had another piece where somehow, there’s one crew member that-

Karla Nelson: Wow, that’s like on accident zone and then the strength of an idea, not passenger syndrome. I wouldn’t say that one, right? Because they weren’t just sitting around, eating Bonbons, that’s for sure. So yeah that happened to

Kevin Nothstine: But there’s a lot of mistakes that happened that lead up on and that’s the error chain, that can lead to that big mistake of that company having to declare bankruptcy because of a whole multitude of mistakes that happened along the way.

Karla Nelson: Yep. So you’ve got to break that chain somehow when it’s happening for sure. Awesome. All right. Well, Kevin is there any last comments that you’d like to make before we wrap up of the third part of a four part series in how to lead like a boss. Even though this one is how to lead a team like a boss?

Kevin Nothstine: Yep. On this one. This was all about those errors that you can make yourself or recognize in other people and just knowing that these all exist and now you want to create a culture and think about avoiding each of these different traps that can pull you into a bad situation.

Karla Nelson: Awesome. Well, thanks again for being on the show and make sure you check out the first and second part of this fourth part series and we’ll be wrapping up the final series next week where we’re going to dive a little bit deeper into number nine, which was hazardous attitudes. Thank you again, Kevin.