The E Mess…Explaining the mess that Entrepreneurs create in running businesses. 

 

In the E-Myth, Michael Gerber introduces the idea of success by working ON your business, not IN it. At the time 80% of new businesses failed. Now it’s closer to 90%. That’s one reason we call it the E-Mess.  About half the people who start new businesses simply try to replicate their job without their sucky boss. Now, attractive as this may seem, you may have to enter the lucrative handyman industry to pull this off.  One great idea: Build your business as a set of systems that serve the customer. Fits very well with Deming’s credo: “94% of failure is process failure, not people failure.“  Gerber says to do this, the leader needs three personalities: Entrepreneur, manager, and technician. Unfortunately, most of us can’t make that work.  That’s because these jobs are still too general, so they demand several different core natures of people to do them. “I’m great at part of my job. The other part puts me into a coma…”  By its nature, the franchise model of business that Gerber suggests gears itself to later adopters. That means the early adopters, the Movers and Shakers, won’t be motivated to convert the business. Plus, the Provers and Makers don’t want to change. And hiring a motivational speaker won’t change this. It will just annoy everyone.  So, like many of these books, the E-Myth becomes the E-Mess because you can’t implement it with what they preach. The solution?  Bring in the right people with the right core natures of work at the right time. 

 

Listen to the podcast here:   

THE E-MESS 

Karla Nelson:  And welcome to the People Catalysts podcast, my friend  

Allen Fahden.Allen Fahden:  Good day, Karla. Good day. 

Karla Nelson:  Good day. While your voice is exceptionally deep, I mean it’s already deep. Must have been water or something. 

Allen Fahden:  My dog can’t hear me. It’s a problem. 

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, you’re funny. Oh well this is going to be a really fun… Actually this entire podcast series I think has been a lot of fun because there’s books in here I haven’t read for 20 years, and going back through and looking at them and then looking through a completely different lens than when I first read the books. I think both of us had been going through that and I’m getting some really big “Ahas” that we wish we would have had when we want to start businesses and helped others as well. 

So we’re going to talk today about a book called E-Myth, and it’s going to be a two part series because the author Michael Gerber did record a second podcast… or not recorded podcast. He did- 

Allen Fahden:  He wrote a second book. 

Karla Nelson:  There you go, wrote a second book, and he identified a lot of the same things. But then he really focused on systems and things like that that we’ll talk about tomorrow. So the book was published in 1986 and what it really decrypts of, I think, what Gerber says in this book is that 80% of businesses fail for a reason and we need to look at those reasons. And he had some really neat “Ahas,” especially this book was, I mean 1986 that was quite a long time ago. And at the time you have to look how business was done, which is very different than today. We didn’t have people strategies and culture. It was, you know, do it. Right? And so for this podcast, the title is going to be E-Miss. And Allen, you can obviously say why. Entrepreneurial miss. 

Allen Fahden:  Yes. Because, well, we’ll, we’ll see. But it’s kind of our mission here is to review these books. And if you’re frustrated because you weren’t able to implement the ideas in it, they’re good ideas. We liked the books, but then they’re always kinda has a little twist on it then that’s a sort of the darker side. So the E-Myth becomes the E-Miss. 

Karla Nelson:  Yes. Cause E-Myth is entrepreneurial myth. That’s what it stands for. So, all right. And actually we didn’t even use the word, I mean the word entrepreneur, IA a French word, I believe. And it’s a very old word, but we didn’t really say that a lot back in the eighties. It wasn’t until probably mid nineties where it became a little bit more popular. And now of course, out of the bay area everybody wants to be entrepreneur, but not everybody should be. Just… 

Allen Fahden:  That’s fore sure. 

Karla Nelson:  Looking into that a little bit today too. And so the other part that Gerber looks at is if you don’t want to be in that 80% of business and startups at fail, that you need to be system dependent, not people dependent. 

So we’re not… and he talks about systems dependent versus expert dependent. Have the lowest level employee team member. We’ll talk about how a team member doesn’t need to be an employee, which it was probably back in the day, you didn’t see Fiverr where you can find a great person anywhere in the world. They could do one little part of the work. It just didn’t exist. 

And so essentially we won’t talk about as much of that, but I think that was a really big “Aha” as well. Because remember everybody worked for large corporations, they kind of, it wasn’t like, oh… There were a lot of Solo-preneurs. I would say maybe real estate agents and things. 

But most people had that focus of go, get a degree, and get a good job. And they stayed there for forever. 

Allen Fahden:  Gold watch. 

Karla Nelson:  Yes, exactly. And so one of the things I believe too, and Allen, you can jump in here because you actually have been the person that a long time ago where we started talking about Deming and he was this incredible systems guy, and he basically identified that 94% of failure is process failure, not people failure. And so if you’re not process focused, then you’re going to have a big, big challenge being able to implement anything for that matter, but then also get to the replicatable ability that Buffett likes. Right. I hate innovation because why? He wants to find something to make money and just hit repeat, repeat, repeat. Exactly, exactly. 

Allen Fahden:  And there’s an actual illustration of the difference between people failure and process failure and you imagine our hard nose CEO, they probably call him a company president at the time, instead of a CEO, who walks into the plant where they’re doing the manufacturing and says, “Hey, there’s oil on the floor. Who’s to blame here?” 

You always want to find out who it is so that they get blamed sufficiently or punished or whatever. And the manager of the manufacturing facility who was very well steeped in Deming and quality and process versus people say, “That’s not exactly the right question, it’s not who’s responsible for oil being on the floor, but just simply why is there oil on the floor? That’s the correct question.” And of course a big tool for quality still is called the “Ishikawa” Diagram. You asked me five levels of why. They also call it a fishbone diagram, almost a Kawasaki Diagram. 

So Ishikawa and then so they actually did that on the floor of the manufacturing thing rather than “Okay, I’ll ask why is there oil on the floor?” Being kind of smug and thinking he’s going to get to punish the whoever it was anyway. And so the answer was “The machine leaks. The machine that the oil is next to.” 

And he said, “Well, okay, let’s do another level of why. Second level of why, why does the machine leak?” Well, the answer was “It had a bad gasket.” So that was number three. Question number three, level wise, “Why is there a bad gasket?” That’s what it’s really starting new joy. He’s getting more smug and smug, “Well, why is it a bad gasket then?” 

And so the manager said, “Well, we, we had to cut some costs out of the machine. So we decided that we could live with that gasket.” He said, “Oh, well why did you have to cut cost out of the machine?” He goes, “Well, sir, you gave us an order to cut all our budgets 10% across the board. And when we reduced it, that’s one of the places we had reduced it.” 

Karla Nelson:  I love that. 

Allen Fahden:  He goes, “Oh.” So a little embarrassed. 

Karla Nelson:  Well that’s that that hole, anytime you’re pointing the finger at someone else, there’s always four pointing back at you. 

Allen Fahden:  That’s right. Absolutely. 

Karla Nelson:  And so that’s it. And this is what we see. Everyone wants to find somebody to blame. And I would think it was even more extensive back in the day than it is now. And so in looking at that, and we’ll get back to the process and then also overlaying the entrepreneurial model that he talks about in the three different “personalities” of business, I also wanted to identify two other things I thought that he did differently back then that has become almost common, you need to have this and not that people do it by the way, because that’s what we’re talking about here. Everyone knows they need a business plan. Everybody. There’s not one person in business that doesn’t know it, but it’s ridiculous how few people actually have it. And so, I think in the E-Myth he also identifies business model, business model, business model. And I think it’s interesting because, and he starts with me talking about the entrepreneurial model that companies need to be customer-centric, and then how do you differentiate yourself so that you can stand out from all the other businesses, right, that are serving that same exact customer. 

And Allen I’ll let you jump on that because I want to at least before we move on to the three different personalities, really take a look at that because I think it’s critical, but I think then it was unique, right? This is 1986 and so everyone is having these big “Ahas” because they hadn’t heard it 50 times over again. I think that was one of the reasons why the book was so successful. I also think we need to get into the reason why you still read the book and you’re… I think I read this book seven times and Work I would just get more frustrated because I was 21 years or 20 years old. So just dying on how I could, you know, get things done even though I knew that it needed to be done and I agreed with the strategy and the concept. 

So the bit, the other thing he talked about, and we’re not going to get into this today, but I thought it was something in the book that was unique at the time was the franchise prototype and he talks about this, think about it. At that time only McDonald’s had really been a real true franchise prototype. Now everybody uses that as an example. And the last piece he talked about was what they called in the book a proprietary operating system. That this means, what are you doing to make yourself different so that you can, again, go back and make your business customer-centric. Because Allen, don’t you remember when businesses weren’t customer centric? If you were the little guy you didn’t… They weren’t worried about making you happy cause he didn’t have many options. 

Allen Fahden:  Yes. I remember the old laughing thing that Lily Tomlin did where she was the phone operator and she says, “We don’t care. We don’t have to. We’re the phone company.” That was the time when you can just didn’t care whether the customer lived or died. And so, but they are. 

I think also really key piece in here is, you mentioned it a couple times, is standing out from all the other businesses. And that’s another thing that especially large companies are uncomfortable with being different than… It’s moving today, people a lot more… People are starting to realize the value. But I think one of the key pieces of research comes out of the, we’ve mentioned this a couple of times, so along the way in our lives is a blue ocean strategy. By Renee Mauborgne and W Chan Kim, where they did the research and they found out only 14% of the company’s playing what they call uncontested market space. That means no competitors because they’re so different. 14% of the company, so 86% of the companies don’t even have any significant part of their business. 

That even plays in uncontested market space, but the interesting thing, the value, why would I want to be different? Well, those who have uncontested market space, that may be 14% of the companies but more than they get way more than their share of the revenue. They get 14% gets 33% of the revenue and then they get 61% of the profit. That’s four times the profit just simply by being different. And one of the things about being different, it’s hard to do and it’s one of the things we help people do because it’s one thing to conceive of an idea that makes you different, but to implement it is very, very difficult. 

Karla Nelson:  There you go. In a different… Implementing a mediocre idea is better than implementing a different idea, especially when you’re balancing all of our coordinators of work. 

Allen Fahden:  Yup. At least you got something. 

Karla Nelson:  And so the book also talks about, so I mentioned the business model. What we’re going to talk about today is balancing the business personalities. I mentioned the entrepreneur, manager. and technician because I think that was a big “Aha.” However, in the book they say you have to be all three and I’ve never met somebody that does all those three things. 

Well, and a couple of the other things that it talks about is don’t own a business… or don’t own a job, own a business. And so, but I think that that is so common talk these days. They don’t want to go too much into that because everybody knows they need a business. While everybody knows they need to take care of our customers, especially with online… Everybody can get ahold of anybody and write something negative. They do it for sport on Yelp. I was just going to go there. It’s another business writes about another business which is horrible to do. But unfortunately back was this… the information age that we live in. 

And so what we’re going to talk about is the entrepreneur, the manager, the technician, and how these three personas… So I’ll explain real briefly even though most people probably understand, the entrepreneur is the visionary. This guy lives in the future or gal lives in the future. Innovator. They’re typically very creative and they want to be in control of everything. When I think of an entrepreneur that’s a typical entrepreneur, I think of Steve Jobs. Everybody knows who he was and he pressed the envelope, right? So we’re going to the most extreme entrepreneur just for the example teeth. Everybody knows it. 

Now you’ve got the manager. This is somebody who lives in the past, right? They’re pragmatic, they’re a planner. They like to organize, they want to stick to the status quo. Managers like order because they, that’s what they’re responsible for. When things go wrong, that’s the person that’s the leadership is going to go to. 

And then you have the technician. So a technician is somebody who lives in the present. I know that we call our technician on one of our teams a tinker-er and he’s the ultimate and he’s actually an electronic technician and they love to work on one thing at a time and you can think of a technician, the way they roll it out in the book, I thought it was a good example, is that if you are good at baking muffins, that doesn’t mean you’re going to be great at running the business. So the technician is the baker and what they’re trying to differentiate is between each of these and then the business owner. 

Allen Fahden:  And that’s it. It’s interesting from our point of view too, because this is one of those things where they’ll take something that we… “Hey, the old model is… It’s your job, here it is in its entirety. Now do it all.” And so what Gerber has done is kind of zoomed in a little bit and identified these three roles. And one of the things is that we would say that that’s great. He just didn’t do it enough. You didn’t zoom in enough. And so what one thing we did there was overlaid our core natures of people onto these designations that he gave it. Entrepreneur, manager and technician. And you find out that the entrepreneur, that person who lives in the future is most ideally probably a combination shaker, mover. The shaker is someone who comes up with the ideas, mover’s the one who chooses the best idea and sets priorities on how it’s going to get done. 

And perfect description of Steve Jobs, shaker mover, mover shaker combination. So that’s a very different person from the person who’s the manager. A great manager who lives in the past, pragmatic, doesn’t want to do something that’s going to be a disaster. And they can kind of look around corners and know what’s gonna go wrong. Well that person is ideally… That manager, ideally an approver because they’ll just do the things that make sense and they don’t take unnecessary risks, et cetera. 

And then you get to the technician and that’s usually some kind of a combination of approver and a maker. The maker being the person who really does details, approver knows what’s going to go wrong. And that’s the person who lives in the present and doesn’t get bored with the how to. Because by the time you’re down to the technician level, you’re writing code or you’re doing little tiny details and you’re repeating them over and over and you can imagine you and I were basic combinations of movers and shakers, how bored we would get and how restless, we would get doing these details. So… 

Karla Nelson:  Oh yeah. I think that’s critical. And I think the other thing that you said that was really brilliant there was that they’re going to be one or a combination of them and understanding that as well. But also that the mover is no other model identifies the mover. Right? And they have a very unique way of working differently in ideation implementation on getting it done. Because the first thing is going to be what are we going to do? The second thing is what are we going to… how are we going to do it? And so it’s the when and the who that’s missing and getting things done right? And I think that is really an interesting role and core nature of work to understand and how to find them. It’s not that we don’t need everybody, we need everybody. We need you at different times. It’s like finding the point guard on your basketball team. Who’s that one that’s going to work uniquely and also appreciate everybody else’s core nature of work? Then pick the best idea or set of ideas and set the priority. 

One of the things, I always say, being a big mover, there’s people that I never liked working with, but I appreciated the work that they do and so there is no personality issue because we like to call it a personality issue. It’s what part of the work do you do? Because the app, the object of the exercise is to get something done and it removes that resistance. And so I was just saying the ideation, right? What are we going to do? Your mover plays that point guard and balances it out and uses a process to get a hundred percent buy-in. Now you moved your implementation and that’s going to be your approver in some way, shape, or form playing the… them playing the point guard and going back and forth to make sure everybody stays in their own unique lane. Because you… I have said this so many times, you can’t co-mingle animals. You throw everybody in a room. We’ve been in those meetings. That’s why there’s a book called Death By Meeting because you’re just throwing everybody in a room saying, “Oh, good luck with that.” It doesn’t work out so well. We’ve been in those meetings. Everybody has been in those meetings. We’ve sat in just a room, those meetings, to give feedback. 

Allen Fahden:  So when when we say that the entrepreneur, the manager, and the technician doesn’t go zoom in close enough, it doesn’t go far enough. What this means is if you don’t do that and you identified these so-called roles of entrepreneur, manager, and technician, these people are going to be doing their peak work part of the time, what they’re really great at, but then there’s a… What they’re doing flows as time passes, they’re going to work their way, their success is going to work their way right into failure because if they’re going to run into parts of the work that need to be done that aren’t what they’re good at, that aren’t what they love and that’s problematic. 

Karla Nelson:  A typical job description, what needs to be done. That’s it. Nothing else to take into consideration about somebody who’s poor nature of work and one of the things that that fit in sequence, I know that’s what you call it, and I always call it input output, but the fit and sequence of the input to the shaker is reality. So they’re saying, “Okay, there’s something that needs to get done here. It’s some idea that needs to be applied.” The output is ideas. Well, the input for a mover is ideas and the output for the mover is the plan. The input for the approver is the plan and the output is reality. And so you can, and an ideation, we don’t even get the maker involved yet because you’re going to stress them out and so you come up with what to do, get that buy in and use the process and then you pull the maker into it during implementation and the maker has this amazing ability to repeat the same thing after they’ve been given it and like the order of doing that, the drives, all the other ones, the approver can do the same thing over, but they really liked to make the rules. They like to say this is what we’re going to do and they’re so patient, they don’t have a challenge working with the maker to repeat, repeat, repeat. 

So that just tells us, Allen, in that hole, your business in what Gerber’s saying here is you have to be systems driven. If you do not get to the maker work, you can’t repeat in a way where 70% of people don’t hate their jobs and now all of a sudden you’re into that whole disengagement and all those other words that we’ve thrown at this in the last 50 years. And that I think is super critical and how each of those roles are different and how we want to call it a personality issue when really it’s just, you don’t understand what part of the work that that person doesn’t. Everybody is asked to do everything versus taking into consideration what they’re, as you call it, weaker worker and peak worker. 

Allen Fahden:  Yes. And it’s an interesting thing here too, what you just outlined too because it’s sort of a game of dominoes where you would lay out these little things so that the right side of one would match the left side of the next one. That’s how they fit together. And it’s the same thing here. When you’re handing off an idea, a shaker has to hand it off to a mover. Otherwise there’s trouble. And a lot of that has to do with the law of diffusion of innovation for the 16% of the people are innovators. Meaning they love new ideas. They’ll try anything and 30… I’m sorry, 16% are innovators and early adopters and then the next 34% is early majority and they get a little more skeptical and then a late majority gets practical. And then the laggers just won’t… they’re not going to buy anything. 

They’re going to have, you know, dials on their phones and stuff like that. So you’ve got to really pay attention on who you’re handing off your piece of the share of the work to and that’s why it’s nice to have a system where things match and the… my… we were together. Why? Because my output matches your input. I come up with ideas. Your input is ideas. You pick the best one, you make a plan for it, and then then your output is the plan and then the approver looks at the plan and comes up with everything that goes wrong. Now, this is based on what we call red, green, and yellow light matches and what you want to have is green light matches all the way around, which is, it’s a perfect, perfect relationship for a handoff. 

And so why is that important? Well first of all, take a look at the red light matches. Here’s the harm, here’s the problem. Shake your hands and idea off to a red light relationship. And that’s approver. So a shaker comes up with the idea and then what does approver present. That’s not going to work. 

Karla Nelson:  That’s not going to work. 

Allen Fahden:  Shaker says, “Well how about this then?” “Oh No, we tried that before.” 

Karla Nelson:  They’ll do it in the same meeting and just get so frustrated. 

Allen Fahden:  Oh Yeah, zero sum game. And shakers and makers are even worse because you don’t get that clear communication. “Hey, I’ve got an idea.” And the maker says, “Excuse me, I think I’m in the wrong meeting here I’ve got to go to lunch.” 

Karla Nelson:  “I just got to go do some real work.” 

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, that’s right. ” Why are you even telling me this?” 

Just makes me uncomfortable. And movers and makers are red light relationship business. They’re the two doers. And the, the mover is an early adopter doer which means, hey, let’s get something new done and the maker says to the mover, “Come on, you’re moving too fast. Don’t pressure me. We just got everything running smoothly. You’re not going to bring you out in here and disrupt everything.” 

So you want to avoid those things. And that’s why you go to green light relationships. So shakers and movers, the early adopters have a green light relationship with each other. Approvers and makers. I have a green light relationship with each other and they’re the late adopters. So they both, they like the same things. They can talk well and one’s a thinker and one’s a doer, so it’s a match made in heaven. Now the problem is that big chasm that Jeffrey Moore talks about in crossing the chasm where you can get things from early adopters, to later adopters without crossing this giant chasm. And that’s why we have the yellow light relationship that makes all of this possible. And that is the movers and the approvers. They look at each other and they say, “Oh yeah, I understand you.” And they can get along okay. They don’t love each other like the green light ones, but it’s just enough where they can respect each other. 

Karla Nelson:  Yeah. They build that bridge because they need each other so much to stay sane. Yeah, exactly. 

Well and then the other last ones that you would think, because I always say “Man, I love movers. I love movers, will movers, love movers. That’s a green light relationship, but shakers…” Understanding the law of diffusion of innovations down that you’re talking about 110 years of marketing research, everybody is known that you use it for your client, which this book talks about customer centric, right? Everything built around your client, but they forgot to do it with the team that’s actually serving the client. 

Allen Fahden:  Yup. And there’s one little piece there that that really doesn’t go with red light and green light, but usually you have a green light relationship with somebody who’s the same as you. “Hey, you know that guy thinks like me. Oh, she’s just like me. I like her.” But there was one group where that can be dangerous and you oughta know about it and that is shakers and shakers together. Oh, I’m a shaker, I go to lunch with another shaker. By the end of the lunch we’ll have started a business and of course nothing will happen. That’s even worse. Even worse is that we’re in a meeting now and my ideas are competing with her ideas and so now it’s like, “Well I don’t care what we do as long as it’s my idea.” 

Karla Nelson:  Yeah. Or they’ll just assume later on with work. And I love my shakers. Let me tell you, I love them all. I love all the core natures of work because you need everybody to make it run smooth. However, I can’t tell you how many times a shaker will just adopt the thing and think that they came up with it, and just run over. It was like, “Wait a second here.” 

Especially with the mover because that’s their input source, right? So, and they don’t realize, well they got feedback back and this happens so they can really play the tug of war there. And so it’s just really important to be aware of that because that’s why you get mass chaos and then we want to call it culture. 

Allen Fahden:  Yeah. And there’s something that shakers do actually this is sort of a solution to that problem is because they’re the originators of not invented here. So it’s not my idea. It’s not going to go. But what happens is, and this is a beautiful part of the WHO-DO and that is if the approver raises an issue, it says there’s a problem, then you go back to the shaker to get ideas to correct the problems. “Oh we can’t do that. It’s illegal in 18 states.” And the shaker says “So why don’t… That must mean it’s legal in 32, why don’t we launch in the 32 states, we’ll lobby in the 18 cause it… Laws change.” 

Well now that shaker who just came up with a solution to the problem with the original shaker’s idea now hold’s that idea. It’s not both of them own it because one of them created originally and one of them imprinted it. 

That’s the way, that’s the solution to shaker on shaker idea development. 

Karla Nelson:  And that’s when you have and understand that the role in the function is completely different that individuals will fill, and remember the functions we’re talking about here is entrepreneur, manager, and technician because you’re going to have all those dumped into these meetings is that you have to understand that those are different types of individuals and how to facilitate that because the whole premise of this book is, okay 80 to 90% of businesses fail. And the reason they fail is because they’re trying to be oners, which is 1% of the population. So essentially all of the work is made for 1% of the population. And why do so many people hate what they do? Because you’re not making the work that the person you’re making the person fit the work. And if I’m a business owner and I’m going to come to you or I’m reading this book and I say you have to understand entrepreneur, manager, and technician, everyone can do that. 

But not everybody is going to do that well in those three roles. And I think- 

Allen Fahden:  That’s still too broad. 

Karla Nelson:  It’s too broad. And then that was me getting frustrated and then people think, “Oh, I have to hire a manager.” Those days are long gone too as well. And that’s probably another reason why you couldn’t zoom in enough because there wasn’t as many opportunities right? You’d have to go out and get a loan and take a little bit more risk than you probably would have to today. We didn’t have the online stuff. But I think that is the critical part about why businesses fail, because you need four different core natures of work and how to work together. 

Allen Fahden:  And let me clarify one thing too, that the oner, we call it the oner because it’s the 1% of the population who can actually do all the shaker, mover, approver, and maker work. They’re not great at any of those, but they can do them all. But it’s only 1% of the people, which means that 100% of the work is designed for only 1% of the work. The other 99% are going to run into trouble. And that’s why it’s so important to rethink the way we work and not make a person change themselves to fit the work, but change the work to fit the person. 

Karla Nelson:  Yay. And then you have happy people and then you don’t have to spend billions and billions and billions of dollars on messing up or having people not be happy having disengagement and all that training that for 50 years they haven’t been able to figure it out. It’s because you have to understand how to make the work fit the people. So- 

Allen Fahden:  Here’s the new complaining session. Are you ready? 

Karla Nelson:  Yeah. 

Allen Fahden:  “What’s the problem?” “I don’t know. I’m happy.” 

Karla Nelson:  There is none, or… And it’s just knowing for each person where to go to get what they need. It’s because, and we talked about this in a different podcast, Allen, where people cancel out each other if you don’t use the process. If you don’t utilize the law of division… diffusion of innovations and the WHO-DO method, what happens is you cancel each other out, you’re stepping on each other and you aren’t allowed to appreciate the difference that the entrepreneur brings, the manager brings, and the technician brings to the table and who they are. So not only are you not liking your job, you’re not appreciating people and holding them in their brilliance. You’re irritated. And that’s where all the politics and all that stuff happen around the office. 

Allen Fahden:  Absolutely. So what we want to do is clean up the E-Miss. 

Karla Nelson:  There you go. So thanks again for joining me on this podcast. This is a really fun one because I knew so… I mean I remember this book, I read it seven times, so it was really interesting to read it again and go through it and kind of look at it from a different lens because I haven’t read it. I haven’t returned to it in quite some time. So if you’d like to learn more about the WHO-DO method and the process, or listen to our previous podcast, you can find us at the People Catalysts, that is plural, dot com and we will be doing part two of this series because we all know that Michael Gerber did E-Myth Revisited. However, that’s not going to be the nail on fire podcast. 

Allen Fahden:  No it’s not. 

Karla Nelson:  It’s going to be F This Revisited. Because that’s how most people felt when they read the second book and couldn’t get the first one done. 

Allen Fahden:  Yes. So it should be a rockets podcast. 

Karla Nelson:  Yeah. Until we meet again, my friend. Thank you. 

Allen Fahden:  Thank you.