18 companies were listed in “Built to Last”, but were they really “Built to LAPSE”?
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“BUILT TO LAPSE”
Karla Nelson: And welcome to The People Catalysts Podcast, Allen Fahden
Allen Fahden: Good afternoon.
Karla Nelson: Good afternoon, sir, how are you today?
Allen Fahden: Beautiful afternoon, because afternoon follows morning, and morning is always great.
Karla Nelson: So the book we’re going to talk about today is Jim Collins – we previously spoke about Good to Great, he did Good to Great in 2001 – the book he did previous to Good to Great was actually called Built to Last. It was actually Jim Collins … Why do you never hear the co-authors, by the way? Jerry … I’m not exactly sure how to say his name, it’s like Porras?
Allen Fahden: Porras.
Karla Nelson: Porras, it’s Porras, okay. Why can’t they just spell it like … I’m just kidding.
Allen Fahden: It still means full of holes.
Karla Nelson: Full of holes, exactly. So this book, Built to Last, was published in 1994, and it was wildly successful. By the way, Jim Collins obviously it launched … I’m not sure if it launched his career, but it definitely made him well-known, I’ve known about him my entire business career.
And I’ve read both of the books, Good to Great several times, I actually like Good to Great better than Built to Last. I don’t even know if it was when I met him or I heard him speak, he said he should have done Good to Great first, and then Built to Last. And I would have to agree. I think it would have been a better book, to be quite honest with you. And it still was amazing, all these concepts we’re agreeing with, it’s just there’s something missing.
And that’s what the focus of this podcast, it was inspired by an article – we’ll make sure it is in the links on the podcast – that identifies three different incredible, long term business books that have almost turned into the Bible of business books, which are Good to Great, then we did In Search of Excellence, and now we’re going to talk about Built to Last. Because that particular article identified that all these great companies in this book, there were 18 quote-unquote “visionary” companies that they looked at, three of them went bankrupt, and I can’t even remember one of the books.
But I think Built to Last actually looked at the largest amount of companies, which is 18 of them, and then they did a six-year research project, and they juxtaposed the what they considered visionary companies with those that weren’t. You can actually do all the research, get the book, it’s a great book. Although I would have to state that all these books are missing something, because they’re so great on the early adoption focus, which is ideation, and there’s a big lack when it comes to implementation. So we’re going to talk about that today.
And the two main themes throughout the book are the characteristics that are common to highly visionary companies, that’s why they call it 18 quote-unquote “visionary” companies, and then how to effectively communicate these findings so that they can influence management. Again, it’s been one of the most influential books of my business career, Allen. There are several others, but Good to Great and Built to Last are always on the top of the list, right?
There are tons of great business books, but these are definitely on the top of the list, as well as In Search of Excellence, which is probably why they did that article. You’ve got to see this, guys, it’s incredible. Out of all the companies that were identified and all of the principles, they didn’t turn out so great. They weren’t built to last, they were built to lapse.
Allen Fahden: And some of you may have gotten here by looking at our parody book cover that says Built to Lapse. The companies, their performance didn’t turn out that well over time, and so Built to Lapse, some of them had actually lapsed and went out of business. That’s why we did the parody for In Search of Excellence to In Search of Extra Lunch. And so on.
Karla Nelson: Yes. And again, we agree with all of this, great book. It’s just we’re going to talk today, again, as in the previous podcast, about what’s missing. The first concept that we’re going to talk about … I’ll give you all six, and then Allen let’s break down each of the six. Again, there are I think 11 or 12 chapters in this book. However, we don’t have time to go into each of the 11 or 12, but what we did is we went through and took the core concepts that we agree with, and that we think we can shine a little bit of light on … Take the core concept, but then you need to get it done.
The first is “preserving a core ideology”. Basically, this is what we believe. Simon Sinek would call this the “why” of the company, obviously very important. And then everybody knows this term, I don’t know if they knew where it came from, but BHAG, Big Hairy Audacious Goals, we’ll talk about that. And then “owning a cult-like culture”, we’ve got some interesting input on that one. And then “trying new things”, everybody agrees you have to do that in business. “You don’t need a great idea to start a company”, Jeff Bezos, right, let’s just do an online bookstore, look where it led him.
Allen Fahden: The most prosaic idea of all time, worth billions.
Karla Nelson: Yeah. And then we’ll talk a little bit about “consistent innovation”, which everybody would agree you need consistent innovation. But again, how do you get that done, and how do you get it done taking your team with you instead of having a whole bunch of dead bodies behind you?
Again, I know we bring this study up, but this study’s been done over and over by Gallup, 70% of people hate their jobs. So if you’re going to do consistent innovation, and 70% of your team can’t stand to be there, 89% are unhappy, but 70% HATE, capital H-A-T-E, their jobs, and so we’re going to talk a little bit about how you can do these things and how to bring your team along.
So first is the idea, those are the six general concepts, ideas in the book. And then we’re going to talk about the implementation of those ideas. Ready Allen?
Allen Fahden: Ready.
Karla Nelson: Awesome. So the first one we’re going to talk about is “preserving a core ideology”. Everyone knows that you need to have everyone on the same page. What do they always say, the same sheet of music? There’s a whole bunch of different ways that that is described. And it is absolutely critical, but whose ideology are you talking about? You know Allen, you should talk about mission and vision statements, I know you have a lot … Obviously we can’t stand those, but you have to have it. But I think actually core ideology is a better way to say it than mission and vision. But what does every business have to start out with, right?
Allen Fahden: They always start out with their mission and vision. And sometimes they can be the most boring things imaginable. I think the problem is that it’s usually the owner, the CEO, the leader, whoever’s in authority that winds up having the say over the mission and vision statements. And I’ve actually been at one company where we did a day-long drill to create mission and vision statements for the company, and the CEO came into the room and said, “No, that’s wrong. Here’s what we’re going to do.”
Karla Nelson: Hence the reason why we always get buy-in from the CEO not to do that after running our process. Oh my gosh.
Allen Fahden: So the other part about mission and vision statements, and ideology, is that everybody wants it to be complete. You’ve got this statement that’s about 80 paragraphs long, and it’s got every buzzword imaginable in there. “Through the empowerment of our people, we will create a culture of inclusiveness that allows us to be on the cutting edge of innovation and the cultural outcome of customer …”
Karla Nelson: Excellence, there’s a word.
Allen Fahden: Yeah, it has to-
Karla Nelson: Sorry to jump in there, you see that one every time.
Allen Fahden: “We’ll be customer-driven to excellence.”
Karla Nelson: There you go.
Allen Fahden: And nobody can even remember this, or even perhaps pronounce half the words in it. So a solution would be … Because what they do is they create this core ideology, and then they try to sell it to everybody, and it’s no accident there’s a term called buy-in. But buy-in isn’t a very good term if you think about it, because it just means that you create something and then you try to get everybody to adopt it, and of course human nature says that at least half of them won’t.
Instead, a solution is to get everyone to create a vision and see where all the lines cross. And we have a great process for that, The WHO-DO Method, where all the people keep handing the idea off to each other in sequence, and everybody gets their own input, and pretty soon the idea begins to take shape into something that just about everybody can either get excited about or at least say, “Yeah, I can live with that. I don’t mind doing that.” As opposed to, “I hate it.”
Karla Nelson: Yes, exactly, and breaking it down into two parts. Ideation is creating the idea; implementation is getting it done. I really think that what happens is one set does the idea really well, and one implements really well. It’s connecting that point.
For instance, if you’re looking at even something like a mission and vision statement, the idea of creating the mission and vision statement, it’s critical that we include the entire team in creating it because then, as soon as you get to implementing it, you don’t have your hand-off between the mover and approver. Those two are really important, the hand-off between ideation and implementation.
So what happens is you say … And again, I’ll use Simon Sinek as an example here, Start With Why … Guess what? It’s all the early adopters that are pulled to that. But how then do you make that mission and vision come to life? Guess who’s going to do that every day? It’s your implementers, it’s your later adopters, it’s getting their input to go, “Okay, well we created it altogether, now what are we going to do every day?”
And we’ll talk about this a little bit with regards to culture, because culture is what you do. It doesn’t happen to you, it’s not the potluck on Friday, or any of that stuff, culture is what you do. In breaking that down, that’s the biggest misnomer; in probably every single challenge or problem that The WHO-DO Method solves, you really have to look at it in two steps. The process works similarly, but actually different, in two steps.
It’s a give and take. It doesn’t matter which of these six we’re talking about, you have to break it down and then go, “Are we in ideation, or are we in implementation?” Because you could be in the middle of implementation and have to stop and go back to ideation, because you have a problem and a roadblock that you hit.
So, as we go through all six of these, think about breaking them down into two completely different steps, and then the give-and-take that happens along the way so that you get … And I like what you said there, Allen, that was actually new, you’ve never said that before, the term “buy-in” is a horrible word because it’s, “Hey, I have this, now you’re going to have to deal with it and I want you to be on my bandwagon.”
As you and I both know, the only ones who will say yes are the movers, and that’s if it’s the best idea or set of ideas. And if they don’t have a chance to have an input on that, then the likelihood you’re even going to get disengagement from the mover is highly likely. So that means you’re just cramming it down somebody’s throat and you’re using their salary as leverage.
Allen Fahden: “Here’s our new mission and vision, open wide.”
Karla Nelson: Exactly. So the next one, which is so interesting, I had forgotten that BHAG was actually coined in Built to Last. Going back through it I was like, “Oh my gosh, that’s right.” Now everybody writes Big Hairy Audacious Goals.
Everyone knows we need goals. My goodness, I read mine every single morning. I have checklists for a reason, that’s my daily goals, weekly goals, annual goals, long term goals. It’s common sense. Now, reaching way for the stars, though, Allen, I would have to tell you, all four core natures of work are going to do that differently, don’t you think?
Allen Fahden: Absolutely. And the stars are located in different places.
Karla Nelson: So share a little bit about that, maybe start with Shaker, Mover, Prover instead. We usually start with the Mover, but let’s start with the Shaker.
Allen Fahden: So for a Shaker, the keywords are Big and Audacious. They don’t care about goals. I know a Shaker who wrote a book called Goal-Free Living. That’s how much Shakers care about goals, it’s just something that interferes with the normal course of coming up with great ideas.
Karla Nelson: Good point. Because they’re not implementers.
Allen Fahden: Yep. So Big and Audacious are it, they have an anathema. They’re not doers, they’re thinkers. So as a result, that’s the constellation that a Shaker goes through, and it’s something like what’s the most disruptive idea ever done, where somebody will say, “Wow, you thought of that? I can’t believe you thought of that.” I want to be rich and famous for this idea I thought of, or these ideas I thought of. That’s the endgame, it doesn’t matter if it gets done.
Karla Nelson: I love it.
Allen Fahden: “You thought of that?”
Karla Nelson: How many Shakers have we worked with who were like, “I thought about whatever solution 20 years ago, I thought about putting everything online like Jeff Bezos 20 years ago.” And it’s like, “Well yeah, that’s a great idea, but if you can’t get it done …”
Allen Fahden: That’s right, “Good job there, thinking of that, and probably 700,000 other people thought of it too.”
Karla Nelson: Exactly. And I always say I’ll take a mediocre idea any time of the day – we’ll get into that one in a little bit – that gets implemented, more than the best idea that’s like, “So? You had an idea, that’s only the beginning.”
Allen Fahden: That’s right. Having the idea is the booby prize.
Karla Nelson: So let’s talk about how that shows up as far as goals for Movers. Boy, this is so different.
Allen Fahden: Oh yes, it’s almost the opposite in the sense that it’s … Well, Big is the same, because Shakers and Movers are both big picture people. I think the Hairy part comes in, not in that your goal should be manscaped or anything like that, but that it’s probably going to be a … It’s a mountain that’s really hard to climb. It’s harder to climb K2 than it is to climb Everest, so the real aficionados, the real Movers, want to climb K2. We do it not because it’s easy, we do it because it’s hard. I think that’s one thing that’s attractive to a Mover.
And then the other part is it’s a goal, it’s a big goal, and gosh, anytime you can get that done, that’s terrific. So it really doesn’t matter what the idea is, it’s more about the nature of the doing, about the nature of the getting there, let’s get to someplace that is hard to get to that no people have gotten to before.
Karla Nelson: Yeah, and how does this show up for Provers and Makers? We could probably put them in the same bucket on this one, as far as … A little bit different.
Allen Fahden: For the most part. So first of all, Big? Uh-uh (negative). Hairy? Yeah it’s Hairy all right, the whole thing’s Hairy, let’s just abandon it.
Karla Nelson: There’s the Provers, just do Hairy, that’s all that is, just Hairy.
Allen Fahden: And Hairy shows up in another way to Makers, which is like, “Don’t bring that ugly thing in here, I just got everything running beautifully. You’re going to bring in something Hairy? Forget it.”
Karla Nelson: Yes, but goals they like, right? Their checklists-
Allen Fahden: They like goals. It would be an SG for them, a Small Goal.
Karla Nelson: That’s why they love checklists and knowing what to do. And they’re fine with repeating the same thing.
Allen Fahden: I sent the email. Okay, there’s my goal for the day, that’s a goal.
Karla Nelson: Yeah, so basically with Shakers, the Big and Audacious is fantastic and fun. Movers, honestly I’d say the BHAG whole thing, Big Hairy Audacious Goals. Because Hairy and Audacious actually go together, it shows up to mean something. Provers, all they see is Hairy, and Makers see Hairy and Goals. There’s the difference between the do and the think.
So what we do is we go, “Okay, everybody needs to have Big Hairy Audacious Goals.” Well, actually the team needs to have that.
Allen Fahden: Yeah. Right.
Karla Nelson: Together, because they balance each other out. And that’s a great example of the four core natures of work where the Mover is the facilitator, because they can see both sides in the ideation standpoint. Now, in implementation, you’ve already agreed on. So now you’ve agreed on it, and you just put the goal in stone. And then that’s when you shift gears.
Allen Fahden: Yep.
Karla Nelson: Okay, we’ll move on to number three, which is “creating a cult-like culture”. This is hilarious, because I look at number one as the core ideology, the “why”. Cult-like culture, and we use the buzz term culture which I really don’t like, because the object of the exercise is not to get along and sing kumbaya, it’s to get something done.
When you’re on a winning team, you can look to your left and your right and not even like the people, but be a part of a winning team getting things done, and you don’t really care. Well, me as a Mover, I’m probably a little bit more leaning into that, but culture is what you do. It’s not, “Create this cult-like culture where we are all friends and we do the same things and we’re robots.”
Allen Fahden: Yeah. In fact, one of the things you don’t want to do, one of the old beliefs that they were challenging, they used to say everybody would have to have a very charismatic leader to put together a really high-performing company.
Karla Nelson: That was the main theme of the book, one of them. Create a cult-like culture and have a charismatic leader, right?
Allen Fahden: Yeah, because that’s how you create a cult-like culture, is to have a charismatic leader. There would be no Jonestown without Jones.
Karla Nelson: And that’s why we didn’t make it a main point of the book, because it was like … The word just kind of-
Allen Fahden: It’s self-contradictory.
Karla Nelson: Yeah, exactly. Everybody wants to have a culture … This reminds me of, and I know we use this quote all the time, but Peter Drucker, “94% of failure is process failure.” The process dictates the culture, which is what you do. The process is what you do, and there is safety in a process for everyone. There’s safety for the team, right? It’s safety for the Movers, Shakers, Provers, and Makers using a method.
So I think a lot of times people look at Deming’s quote, “94% of failure is process failure, not people failure,” and I think what they think is, “You have to have a checklist for everything.” While that ultimately is a key idea, because you want to replicate something over and over again, what I think he was saying is if you just have a method, it’s not just the step one, step two, step three, even thought that’s the idea, is to get to that, it’s the method of applying something and being comfortable and having people feel comfortable with what they’re doing, and not be a part of the 70% of people that hate their jobs.
Allen Fahden: Right. There was a guy at my first job, he was the Sales Manager and I was PR Director, and I was all young and fresh and wanted to do things my way, and he’d look at me and say, “Touch the bases. Touch the bases.” “What do you mean by that?” “Go through the steps. You’re not going to be able to just go boom and declare something’s going to happen. We have a way of doing things around here, learn what that is and touch those bases. You’ll get a lot more done.” Brilliant advice.
Karla Nelson: Exactly. And it’s so simple, there you go. Honestly, something simple like that, that people can understand, agree with, and then buy into. I think it’s why we might have to look at this book too, but books like Fish! and Whale Done! They’re so simple, and they did so well, and they’re great books, but there is a brilliance about being simple. Simplicity really is …
Of course, it sounds simple. I always say climbing to the top of Mount Everest is really simple, put one foot in front of the other. But I’m sure most people wouldn’t say it’s easy, although Kilimanjaro, as you mentioned, is a little harder.
Allen Fahden: Yeah, I think it was Judge Oliver Wendell Holmes, who was Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, he said, “For simplicity on this side of complexity I give not a whit. For simplicity on the other side of complexity, I would give my fortune.”
Karla Nelson: So true, that’s a great quote. You haven’t used that one in a while, that’s always a good one. It’s very true, right?
So we’ll move on to number four then, which is “try new things”. This is hilarious. I agree, everyone knows you need to try new things, but let’s go through maybe some of how that’s dangerous, all the way from different reasons. From the Shaker who would love to try new things every other day, to the Maker where it actually physically hurts them based off of the 110 years of marketing research that we talk about every day, and that The WHO-DO Method is built on, which is the law of diffusion of innovation. So you want to share that?
Allen Fahden: Absolutely. I worked with a guy who used to say, “I don’t think I’m going to do that, that would be a career-limiting move.” He was really talking about how dangerous it is for people to try new things, and part of that is fear of failing and then being punished. There’s a lot of punishment that goes on in companies. If you want to try new things, one of the things you can do is to spread the intelligence out by truly working as a team, which means going to the right person at the right time for the right thing, which is The WHO-DO Method. That also spreads out the risk.
When the team comes up with the idea together, and figures out the implementation plan together, and everybody does their part, you really can’t find an individual to blame, and it’s really safe ground for a lot of people to do their best. It’s not a self-averaging, but a self-modulating system in that if it’s too crazy of an idea, people are going to-
Karla Nelson: They’ll kill it. If it’s not going to work, your team will kill it. But a Shaker’s never going to kill the idea.
Allen Fahden: Or they’ll come up with the problems and then solve the problems and make an even stronger idea out of it.
Karla Nelson: Exactly, exactly. So trying new things for the sake of trying new things … That’s why we pulled that out as one of the core themes to discuss. Because it’s correct, it’s correct if you have a method behind it. Trying new things for the sake of trying new things doesn’t make a lot of sense actually. And Warren Buffett would actually hate it if you said that. He has a quote, “I hate innovation.” Warren Buffett. He just wants to get the money printed, that’s it.
And that’ll bring us to … I almost want to jump to number six after that, but we will stay on our focus here, which is number five, “you don’t need a great idea to start a company”. I agree with that. Again, Jeff Bezos, online book company. Not a huge breakthrough idea, however if you haven’t worked the idea through the process, I would say that you could decide that, “Okay, it’s not a good idea,” and just for the sake of it not being a good idea you could start a company? And by the way, ideation is totally different from implementation here.
Allen Fahden: Absolutely. There are a couple of guys who did just that, they didn’t have a great idea, in fact they didn’t have any idea at all. One was a medical doctor, and another one was an entrepreneur, and they went into a room for about two weeks and fought with each other like crazy, and unconsciously ran The WHO-DO Method because each one of them had a couple of different things going. One was a Mover/Shaker combination, and another one was more the Prover and Maker.
And together they invented the pulse oximeter, which read the blood for oxygenation, which prevented a lot of anesthesia accidents and became the standard of the industry. If you want to know what that is, look at people’s index finger, they have a little thing clipped on it with a cord leading away from it. These two guys invented it without having a great idea.
However, they needed … “We’re not saying we invented this, we just actualized this,” they needed to go through an ideation stage, and then an implementation stage. They had to build a machine, they had to get clearances and patents and so forth. They had to get this thing done from beginning to end, and they were smart enough to separate ideation from implementation. Just because your idea is ready to go, and it’s thought through, and it’s been de-flawed, doesn’t mean you can actually implement it. The whole game changes at that point.
Karla Nelson: You got it. And then that balance on implementation, going back and overcoming an obstacle by going back to ideation.
Allen Fahden: To ideation, yeah.
Karla Nelson: The key thereto is, remember, in implementation your Prover always stays your point guard, and your Prover goes to your Mover. Your Prover does not go to your Shaker. Maybe for little things, but for anything that’s critical, the Prover has to go to the Mover, because that is the buffer between all the great things and ideas and getting them done. The Mover is a great facilitator in keeping that team and that glue together, because Shakers and Provers are so dramatically different that, in overcoming an obstacle, you might have to think about 50 things.
The Prover’s sitting there going back and forth, going, “Okay, that’s not going to work,” they don’t fight physically, they just have such different perspectives that even when they speak the perspective it can just create stress between it. Understanding that in implementation, that implementation doesn’t mean that you’ve stopped ideation, it just means that you’re playing tennis, going back and forth and back and forth between ideation and implementation.
That leads us to our final one, which is “consistent innovation”. We all know we need consistent innovation, there’s a million books on it. Allen, how many books have you written on innovation? Everybody knows you need innovation. The problem is, it’s hard to do it.
Allen Fahden: Yeah, consistent innovation, that’s what I would call a Big Hairy Audacious Goal. In fact, it is a Big Hairy Audacious Goal to do it once, to get it from beginning to end. Because there are so many obstacles in the way.
Karla Nelson: You know what? You should share that story, as we wrap it up here, of the 37-36, it’s one of my favorite stories. The experience itself and seeing it. I guess after doing this for a long time, Allen, it’s not even a surprise. It’s the typical. This story is the norm, and it’s the norm no matter what meeting you’re in. Specifically this one was an innovation team, though.
Allen Fahden: Yes. I was hired as a consultant, that was their first mistake. But they asked me to come in and-
Karla Nelson: Yeah, the only reason is because you didn’t bring me.
Allen Fahden: That’s right.
Karla Nelson: Because you needed a Mover behind you.
Allen Fahden: Yeah, it was the worst possible thing. So I sat through a two-hour meeting, and what they wanted was for me to give them a report at the end of the meeting on how they were doing. So at the end of the meeting, everybody’s gone now, and they said, “Okay, what’s your report?” And I said, “Thirty-seven to 36.” And they looked at me like, “What? That’s your report, 37-36?” I said, “Yep, that’s my report.” “What are you talking about?”
I said, “Okay, you asked me to observe the meeting, and here’s what I did. I counted the number of ideas in the meeting, and there were 37 of them. And then I counted the number of ideas that were shot down. They were shot down by a comment, by a look, by somebody saying that’ll never work, we’ve tried it before, whatever it is. There were 37 ideas, and 36 of them were shot down. It’s important to know that the score with about two minutes left in the meeting was 36-36. Thirty-six ideas, 36 shot down.”
Karla Nelson: It was how long, two hours into it, how long was it?
Allen Fahden: Yeah, that was an hour and 58 minutes, after an hour and 58 minutes, 36-36. That would mean, doing the math, how many ideas did the team have? None, zero, bupkis, nada. Somebody had the 37th idea, and everybody said, “Oh yeah, let’s do that. Can we go now, please?”
Karla Nelson: Exactly. “Can we go? And by the way, that’s not going to get implemented anyway.” That creates the, as we say, culture, because that’s what we do. Sit tight, don’t make any sudden moves, because nothing’s going to change anyway.
Allen Fahden: Nothing’s going to happen anyway. And the other thing was, how good was idea number 37? How original was it?
Karla Nelson: Not.
Allen Fahden: Not. “Hey, let’s put salt and pepper together on the table.” Oh okay, nobody’s ever done that before.
Karla Nelson: Or do the same thing, I love it when they come up with the idea that never got implemented before, which is actually … Honestly, you can go through the meeting and even come up with a good idea, or even a mediocre idea. The thing is then also getting everyone to agree to it and then implement it. We love to use the word innovation. At the end of the day, it’s very challenging, as you said, even-
Allen Fahden: It’s another meaningless buzzword. The only use of innovation I think is the historical perspective. “Oh, somebody did this? That’s innovation. You go ahead and you do this now, and everything’ll be fine.” Nobody can do it. That’s what Peter Drucker said in one of his books, he says, “There are only two things a company should be doing: marketing and innovation.” And unfortunately innovation is something that nobody can do. How would you do it? Well, Drucker says you put together teams. But nobody knows how to do that either.
Karla Nelson: Isn’t it amazing when new innovations do hit the market? Because of course we have technology and new innovations, however most people would not realize that there’s a lot of money that gets … Well, they probably do know it … A lot of money gets wasted because you can go three to eight times faster, not waste any money, get people in the right place at the right time doing the right things, and innovation can happen, it can happen without the dead bodies behind you and without the billions, probably trillions, of dollars that we spend on creating new products, services. I hate this word, “outside-of-the-box”. Only Shakers even like that, now it’s such a buzzword, it’s just like innovation.
Allen Fahden: Shakers hate it now.
Karla Nelson: Yeah, they hate it now because it’s not a new idea.
Well, thanks so much Allen for joining me on the podcast today, Built to Lapse. If you want to learn a little bit more about The WHO-DO Method and The People Catalysts, go ahead and head to our website, thepeoplecatalysts, and that is plural, .com.