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The 5th of an 8-part series exploring how to be a People Catalyst.  In the series we focus on “ME”, your individual core nature; “WE”, two people with different strengths interacting; “US”, a team working together; and “ALL”, how to work as an entire organization.

This episode focuses on “WE”.  How each of our core natures create either a red light (STOP!), green light (GO!) or yellow light (Caution!).

Listen to the podcast here:


Karla Nelson:  And welcome to The People Catalysts Podcast, Allen Fahden.

Allen Fahden:  Hello, Karla.

Karla Nelson:  Well, hello, hello. I’m so excited about this series. It’s been fantastic.

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, me too.

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, we are in the fifth podcast of an eight series podcast grouping, and the reason why we are doing this is simply because, you know, we had shared a lot about The WHO-DO Method, and we are taking it to its most granular focus, which is me, and we’re done with the me, mover, shaker, prover, maker, so what are you? We are going to cover that today, us, a group of individuals trying to get something accomplished, and all as an organization.

And so, today I get to interview Allen once again in regards to individual’s core natures, and your natural inbox and outbox, and what happens when we group people together, two individuals, that they don’t have the inbox and outbox necessarily identified. And some do, and some don’t.

So, we’re going to go through this with the red light, the green light, and the yellow light. And just like driving, red light, got to pay attention. Green light, this is going to roll right through. And then yellow light, just make sure you understand what’s going on here, right? And the potential hazard that’s ahead.

So, are you ready to go?

Allen Fahden:  Absolutely.

Karla Nelson:  All right. Okay, so the first, we’re going to start with the red light, so the first red light we’re going to talk about is the Shaker-Prover, okay? And what I’m going to do is I’m, on each of these, just to put a box around what we’re trying to do here, Allen, is I’m going to ask Allen about a story, and then we’ll talk about why is this a problem, and then we’re going to talk about the solution to each of them.

So, thumbs up?

Allen Fahden:  Thumbs up.

Karla Nelson:  Okay. So, Allen, can you tell me a story about a Shaker-Prover, and that it’s a red light, and what individuals can learn from putting Shaker-Provers together?

Allen Fahden:  Absolutely. Once upon a time, there was a meeting.

Karla Nelson:  Not too long ago.

Allen Fahden:  In a place far, far away, there was a meeting, which is a lot like most meetings you see, especially in big corporations, and this was big a corporation that has in observing a meeting, and said, you know, just give us a report at the end of it, see how we do.

And they had an ideation session, and it was like most that you’d see. At the end, they asked for the report, and I said, “Here’s my report, 37 to 36.”

And they said, well, what kind of report is that? I said, “Do you want me to write it up? 37 to 36.” No, no, what kind of a report is that? Please explain.

So, it was very simple. There were 37 ideas that were brought up in that two-hour meeting, and 36 of them were rejected for one reason or another. And finally, the meeting ended with number 37, which was sort of like, you can imagine this, you know, sort of like settling for something, anything to get us out of this meeting. Yeah, yeah, okay, sure, let’s go with that. I don’t care.

And so, it was a pretty miserable meeting, and everybody was drained, and kind of dragging themselves out of the meeting. You know, like-

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, like every meeting, that meeting.

Allen Fahden:  Exactly, like every meeting. And so, that was the report, 37 to 36. 37 ideas launched, and 36 of them shot down.

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, and we won’t go to the one that everybody picks by the time they’re absolutely drained.

Allen Fahden:  Yeah. Can imagine how awful it was?

Karla Nelson:  But, you know, just for the Shaker, yeah, the Shaker-Prover combination here, the whole aspect is, all these ideas, right? And then shoot the down, right?

And so, Allen, why is this a problem?

Allen Fahden:  Well, first of all, we can predict it, because you’re going to have Shakers in a meeting, generating ideas. You’re going to have provers in a meeting shooting them down, coming up with reasons why it won’t work. So, these are both their core natures, it’s just that these core natures are in conflict.

And so, a Prover will immediately critique an idea. It’s sort of like the duty of the Prover. Oh, that’s got six things wrong with it, and I’d better tell you what they are, or otherwise I’m not really doing my job here. And so, you know, the Shakers, they hate that. They just, it’s sort of like, hey, you don’t like my idea, you don’t like me. So that can be a big problem.

Now, on the other hand, Shakers just keep … They’re, as we call it, the run home to mommy, is keep coming up with more ideas. And so, they keep coming up with more ideas, and this pretty much overwhelms the Prover, because they’re critiquing the ideas. Now you’ve got way too many ideas to critique. So, these two just don’t work together, and that’s a red light. That’s like, stop, this is not working.

Karla Nelson:  It makes me laugh. I think of so many ideas, or so many associated with that, but yes, exactly. The Shaker-Prover, again, red light. So, Allen, what is the solution in regards to the Shaker-Prover, and their core natures, and how do you solve that problem?

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, and like most of the solutions to the problems that we provide is they’re not a what solution, they’re not a how solution, they’re a who solution, and that is, who is the person who’s going to be in between them, so they don’t have to deal with each other?

Now, the ideal person for that is the Mover, because the Mover has a great sense of priorities. And so, one of the things they can do is intake all the Shaker’s ideas, and focus on the ones that have the best chance of working. And then they’ve got a relationship with the Prover that says, we’re their … their critiques are not a personal attack on them, but on the Mover. Doesn’t care.

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, because the Mover doesn’t care, they just want to get it done.

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, so that’s fine, just give me that, and I’ll just work this out. And so, you put that person in between, and now, all of a sudden, you have relationships that work.

Karla Nelson:  Yes, so put the mover in between the Shaker and the Prover. So, okay, we’re going to move … And what’s hilarious, I didn’t even realize this, but we’ve got three red lights, two green lights, and one yellow light that we’re going to go over. So, like, the red lights, pay attention-

Allen Fahden:  Yes.

Karla Nelson:  … here, right? Because it’s a big deal. It completely melts down everything when you’re trying to get something accomplished.

And so, now we’ve got the Mover and Maker red light. And so, Allen, can you share a story, because you know we’ve got many, in regards to the Mover and the Maker, and why that’s a significant challenge in their core nature, and their natural inbox and outbox?

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, and that one is an interesting one, because it’s not nearly as in your face as it is between the Shaker and the Prover. So, the … Imagine somebody we know who had an assistant.

Karla Nelson:  I know exactly what story you’re going to share, yes, someone we know who had an assistant. And by the way, this could be several, but I know where you’re going with this one.

Allen Fahden:  And imagine that someone we know being a Mover, and the assistant being a Maker, and the difference between the two of them was that the Mover is all about possibility and being an early adopter, and the Maker is a much later adopter, and is very, very kind of slow and careful.

And the way this would result is the Mover just really saying, we need to do this, and this, and this, and then the Maker wouldn’t say anything, just silence. It was like, this gets really uncomfortable very fast.

And so-

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, but they’re both-

Allen Fahden:  Yes.

Karla Nelson:  … natural doers, and that’s the thing they have in common is they’re doers.

Allen Fahden:  But how could they be so different?

Karla Nelson:  Yes.

Allen Fahden:  So, just like the Shakers and Provers are both natural thinkers, but they are so different. So, this whole thing of early and late adoption makes an enormous difference.

And so, this was kind of a mystery relationship, and it was like, well, there was never much of a sense there that, even though the work got done very well, it’s like, wow, is this working or not? Or what’s going on here?

Karla Nelson:  Yep. And so, Allen, why is this a problem with the Mover-Maker relationship?

Allen Fahden:  Well, so the Mover, by being so much into possibility, and making plans, and setting priorities, and we need to do this so we can get these people over here and we’ll do this. And the Maker is looking at it out of two lenses. One is, can I keep up with this crazy person who’s putting all this together?

And then the other thing is that everything that the Mover does is a threat to the Maker. Why? Because the Maker values the system, things running smoothly, things being in order. And every time you bring in something new, the maker, better than anybody, knows how messy it can be. The Maker flies below the radar at about 50 feet off the ground, can see detail nobody else can see.

And so, as the Mover is saying hey, let’s do this, and this, and this, and the Maker’s going oh, God, oh, oh! It’s like physically painful.

Karla Nelson:  It’s painful! Exactly, exactly. And so, Allen, what is the who solution to the Mover-Maker?

Allen Fahden:  You mean other than having the Maker shut up and hope it will all go away? Go into fetal position?

Karla Nelson:  Yeah.

Allen Fahden:  That doesn’t work too well.

Karla Nelson:  Exactly.

Allen Fahden:  So, there is a who-

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, no.

Allen Fahden:  … yeah, that steps in between them, and that person is the Prover, and here’s why. The Mover and the Prover have a really nice kind of a, you know, professional accommodation sort of a relationship, understand each other. They don’t have the crazy affinity that, say, Shakers and Movers have, but they do have this nice professional relationship, so they get along fine.

And then, the key to it is that the Prover is the only person that the Maker can Trust not to mess up their life, to protect them from all this craziness that’s happening. So, the other thing about the Prover is they have the patience to reframe, to explain what the Mover wants to accomplish, into the kind of detail that the Maker needs to really play the game.

Karla Nelson:  And we’ve got a great story that will come up in regards to that on the green light, so pay attention.

Okay, so we’ve gone through the two red lights. We’ll go through the third, which is the Shaker and Maker.

Allen Fahden:  Yes.

Karla Nelson:  Right? So, Allen, can you tell us a story?

Allen Fahden:  Now this-

Karla Nelson:  We’ve got so many.

Allen Fahden:  … this also happened to someone we know very well-

Karla Nelson:  About … Yes.

Allen Fahden:  … who, at one time in his career, was managing a 22-person creative department at an advertising agency. And this person, who’s unnamed, is known as a Shaker, pretty out there Shaker, and had a designer working for him, a graphic designer who was a Maker.

And the Maker came to him one day, and he said, “So, I see this new project, and I need my instructions.” And the Shaker said, “Oh, instructions.” Now, one thing about Shakers is that pretty much instructionally impaired.

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, well, hello, the definition of instructions to a Shaker and a Maker are completely different.

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, so here’s what the Shaker told the Maker, “Okay, instructions? Sure. The client needs it by 5:00.” And then the Maker-

Karla Nelson:  Good luck.

Allen Fahden:  … said, “What? Those are my instructions? Are you kidding me?” “Yeah, that’s pretty much it, I guess.”

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, and so, why is that a problem?

Allen Fahden:  Well, because the Maker needs detailed instructions. It’s sort of like-

Karla Nelson:  And the Shaker needs no instructions.

Allen Fahden:  That’s right, that’s right. You know, if you’re telling a Shaker how to walk, you just say, walk over that way. If you’re telling a Maker how to walk, well, put your shoes on, and make sure that this one goes on the left foot, and the other one goes on the right food, and be sure to tie your shoes-

Karla Nelson:  Don’t touch and lines.

Allen Fahden:  … don’t touch any lines, don’t step on any cracks but whatever the instructions are-

Karla Nelson:  Exactly.

Allen Fahden:  … whatever the details are, you know, move your hip muscle so that your left foot extends outward. Especially if a maker is doing something for the first time, and even if they’re not doing it for the first time, if they don’t know that it’s not a first time thing, then they want detailed instructions, and the Shaker is the worst person to do that.

Karla Nelson:  Yep. And so, Allen, what is the who solution to this red light of the Shaker and Maker?

Allen Fahden:  Well, so once again, and this is a tiny, tiny bit tricky, but this is the Prover. So, the Shaker and Maker call in the Prover, and those relationships aren’t … at least the Shaker and the Prover aren’t green light, but the Shaker and the Prover don’t have to interact, except for the Shaker says, hey, can you give the Maker his instructions?

And then the Prover asks the Shaker a couple of questions, and then, and this is exactly what happened, this guy asked the Shaker a few questions, and then he sat down with the Maker and drew out this entire kind of a planogram that was, you know, here’s 128 steps in doing this correctly.

And then the Maker looks at it and says, “Oh yeah. Yeah, okay. I can do that.” And then the Maker looked at the Shaker and said, “Is that what you meant?” And then the Shaker said, “I don’t know. I guess so.” And then the Maker sort of rolled his eyes, and muttered, and walked away shaking his head.

Karla Nelson:  Oh, I love it. I love it. It’s just over, and over, and over. So darn predictable.

Okay, so before we move to the green light, we definitely have to go through the hat story, because this is a hilarious story that, you know, is a Shaker-

Allen Fahden:  Yes.

Karla Nelson:  … and a Maker when the Mover didn’t have the authority. And I think it’s a great story simply because if you bring somebody in from the outside that’s a Shaker, you have somebody that is running the show as a Maker, and there is no Mover or Prover, either one, because the Prover can help, as you were saying, communicate the information.

But I love this story, and honestly, any corporation, any company, like, this can hit your bottom line pretty seriously hard, and I think it’s really important on the Shaker-Maker, right? We’ll go out, we’ll find the creative people to give us the ideas to run, and then we’ll have a Mover to run with those ideas. And all of a sudden, if you’re not aware, and you’re not, you know, seeing this landscape, this is exactly what can happen.

Allen Fahden:  Yes, if you ever wonder-

Karla Nelson:  So, take it away, Allen.

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, of course-

Karla Nelson:  You know which story I’m talking about, the hat story.

Allen Fahden:  … if you ever wonder why things go wrong, just think about this, there are people who are natural starters, and those are Movers and Shakers, and then natural Finishers are Provers and Makers.

So again, red light relationship, here’s a Shaker dealing with a Mover, and this was a test of what baseball cap designs would sell the best. It was done in a major shopping center, and one design, which was quite an unusual design, which the Shaker loved, because the Shaker had created it, of course. Shakers love their own ideas, it had done really well.

And so, the Shaker’s on the phone with the Maker, and said, “Well, that’s great news that this hat design tested so well. So, you know, what’s the next step? How many are you going to order?” Because there were several store outlets, and that’s what you’d do next, is you’d order a bunch of the caps, have them made up, and then you’d put them up for sale.

And the Maker paused, and said, “Oh, I’m not going to order any of those.” Silence. The Shaker is thinking, what? What have I misunderstood? So, the Shake-

Karla Nelson:  They’re doing so well, I’m not going to order any more.

Allen Fahden:  The Shaker, yes, this is the best testing, what do you mean?

Karla Nelson:  And remember, this is not the CEO or business owner. This is somebody employed to do a certain specific portion of the work.

Allen Fahden:  And this is where it usually falls down, management has the best intentions, but when it comes down to the workers getting things done, that’s where things can fall apart. And then all the people said oh, yeah, I’ve had these ideas for 20 years, we’ve just never done anything. Well, it’s not their nature to do anything new, and those are the people you need to finish things.

So the Shaker says, “What do you mean you’re not going to order any? They sold better than anything else.” And the Maker says, “Well, that’s the problem.” Now the Shaker’s really muttering, “What?” “Yeah, that’s the problem. They’re selling so well that I’d order them, and then they’d just sell out, and I’d have to order them again. I’d have to order them again right away. I’d be ordering them all the time.”

Karla Nelson:  You’re going to disrupt my world! Exactly, yeah, they’re doing so fantastic, you’re going to disrupt my world.

Allen Fahden:  Oh, my God.

So, Shakers and Makers are from other planets, and that-

Karla Nelson:  I just love that story, only because if you want to focus on your bottom line, there is a very specific thing that you need to be aware of, the red lights-

Allen Fahden:  The red lights.

Karla Nelson:  … that we’re talking about. Yeah, the red light. And then, if you want to increase your bottom line, we’re going to move next to the green light.

Okay, so there’s two natural inbox and outboxes, and the core nature of individuals that, if you haven’t heard, you can go listen to the first four podcasts, where I interview Allen, he answers the questions, and then we go off on tangents, but to go even more specific and deep to understand this.

But the first green light we’re going to talk about is the Prover and Maker. And so, Allen, can you share a story with us about the Prover-Maker combination, and how we need to watch out in regards? Sometimes the green light is not a good light.

Allen Fahden:  Right.

Karla Nelson:  And so, we want to, say, juxtapose the Prover-Maker we talked about earlier, which was a green light, right? Like, get the Prover in there, in between the-

Allen Fahden:  Right.

Karla Nelson:  … Shaker and the Maker, but-

Allen Fahden:  And you’d think this would work.

Karla Nelson:  … like-

Allen Fahden:  But there’s another aspect to watch out for, and that is the nature of the project, the nature of the work you’re doing. So, the Prover and Maker have a great relationship as long as you’re doing later adopter work, but if you’re doing the front end of innovation, the front end of a project, where things need to be unique, need to be innovative, then there can be a problem.

So, here are two people that have a green light relationship, and this is a story about some people who did a brainstorm session with a whole, whole bunch of participants, and generated close to 200 ideas, and some of the ideas were great. And the objective was to revolutionize their segment of the food industry, revolutionize, and there were some great, great ideas in here.

And so-

Karla Nelson:  Oh, this is such a funny story.

Allen Fahden:  … so everybody was done generating ideas by noon. Now, think about this, how do you, once you have all these ideas, and you’ve used brainstorming and all that, how do you wind up choosing what ideas you use?

Well, if you take the conventional idea, generally what happens is that a couple, oh, I’d just say that a couple people take the ideas, and they do God knows what with them, and then you wind up with something pretty awful. And this was no exception.

And so, I happened to be there that afternoon, because I had fallen in love with some of the ideas. I walked into the room, and here is this enormous room full of these big flip chart papers with all these numbered ideas written on them. And I’m-

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, close to 200 of them, by the way.

Allen Fahden:  Yes, and I’m, as I’m walking into this long room I’m looking at the charts, and I’m thinking, oh, no, I love number 121, are you kidding me? Why is that crossed out? Every idea I could see had a big line through it. It was crossed out, eliminated.

And fortunately, for communication’s sake, anyway, the clients, the people who had the power, who had arranged this session, were over at one end of the room. And as I’m walking toward them I said, “You know, I came back because I was, really loved some of these ideas, and I wanted to see what you’re going to do with them.” And, I said, “But look at this, you crossed out some of these great ideas. Does this mean they’re eliminated?” And he said, “Oh, yeah. We can’t use those.”

Karla Nelson:  And again, we’re rolling right into why is this even green light a problem?

Allen Fahden:  Yes.

Karla Nelson:  Right? Because the Prover-Maker is a great combination, however, if they’re the ones in a … this is a very large corporations, if they’re the ones who get to make the last call, the Prover-Maker is lining out everything about revolutionizing the food industry, although, you know, they came up with something pretty pathetic.

Allen Fahden:  Well, so they agree with each other, that’s a green light, and as we’ve said, but if they’re in the wrong part of the process, which is, these are late adopters doing early adopter work, there’s a different kind of a red light, which you should be watching out for.

Karla Nelson:  Yeah.

Allen Fahden:  So, I got over-

Karla Nelson:  Even though they love each other.

Allen Fahden:  They loved each other, one of them-

Karla Nelson:  They will get along, they will-

Allen Fahden:  One was a prover, one was a maker.

Karla Nelson:  They’re cheerleaders for each other, exactly.

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, and so finally I get over there, and I said, “Well, geeze, what did you wind up picking?” And this one guy gets this big grin on his face. I mean, if you’re worried about the client being happy, the client was so happy, and he said, “Oh, we got it. We got it.”

Karla Nelson:  We got this.

Allen Fahden:  So I said, “Yeah, but this is to revolutionize your segment of the food industry.” And they, “Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, we got it.” But what, all those ideas you crossed out, so what did you pick? “Well, you know, on the package, we had this little rectangle that has been navy blue. And so, what we’re going to do is change it so that the color is now teal.”

Karla Nelson:  This is a true story, guys.

Allen Fahden:  Teal. This is-

Karla Nelson:  This is not made up, that’s hilarious.

Allen Fahden:  … this is going to, oh, my gosh, teal is going to revolutionize the food industry?

Karla Nelson:  Yeah. Well, you know, everybody, you know, teal, what are the alligator shirts? You know, that-

Allen Fahden:  Oh, yeah, it was-

Karla Nelson:  … kind of revolution.

Allen Fahden:  Well, that was a hot color at the time, so …

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, the … Okay, so Allen, what is the who solution in regards to the green light with the Prover and Maker?

Allen Fahden:  Well, so obviously you need to have a Mover involved in this process.

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, because they would have picked a much better idea, number one, right? Or a combination of ideas.

Allen Fahden:  Right.

Karla Nelson:  And so, just because you have the agreement with the prover and the maker doesn’t mean that you’re making the best choice, right? You had 200 ideas. I’m just saying that they did not go with the best idea to, quote unquote, revolutionize the food industry, just saying.

Allen Fahden:  Because the processes are almost diametrically opposite. These guys, the Prover and the Maker, went through every idea, and put a line through it because it had something wrong with it. Well, the greatest idea, every idea-

Karla Nelson:  So they did the most safe idea, yeah.

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, every idea is born drowning. Every new idea has as much wrong with it as it does right with it. So, instead of them spending, I would say, an hour and a half, going through 200 ideas and getting rid of 199 of them, and winding up with a teal colored rectangle on the package, a Mover would have gone through that, especially if they’d been at the session originally, if they knew what the ideas were, it takes them less than a minute to know which idea, or combination of ideas, is going to work best.

And so, you’ve just reduced all that wasted time of two hours down to one minute, so that’s 120 to one. Plus, you’re going to have an idea that actually will revolutionize their segment of the market, as opposed to something that is so incremental it’s not going to do anything.

Karla Nelson:  Yep, you’ve got it. All right, so we’re going to move to the next green light, which is the Mover and Shaker, this is one of my favorites, obviously, because you’re a Shaker, I’m a Mover. So, Allen, can you tell me a story, or maybe even our story, right? In regards to the core nature in inbox and outbox that’s natural to the Mover and the Shaker.

Allen Fahden:  Well, give me-

Karla Nelson:  Or maybe just running to the reason why it’s such a green light, right?

Allen Fahden:  Oh, yeah. Well, okay, so Movers love Shakers, because it’s like I’m hungry and I need some food, Shakers provide ideas, which Movers love. They are a supply. They are their drug dealer of ideas. They just keep coming up with more, and more, and more ideas.

Karla Nelson:  And, and the thing is, is that yes, it’s ideas on the initial portion of what should we do, all the way through to every single hurdle, right? That you’re jumping over.

Allen Fahden:  Yep.

Karla Nelson:  So, one is the initial strategy, and the other is hey, I have to constantly jump over something else, and something else. And so, yeah, I love how you say that the Shaker is the drug dealer to the Mover, because it is, because you’re dealing with problems. If you’re ever going to do something, anything worthwhile, or be an entrepreneur, or a business owner, it’s not just the initial idea, it’s the implementation of that idea-

Allen Fahden:  Right.

Karla Nelson:  … and you’re going to continually come up to a hurdle.

And the only way, as a Mover, not to get so frustrated, is to have the input … Oh, of course, I’m speaking to this one, I’m supposed to be interviewing you, is you have to have your Shakers give you new ideas so that you can overcome those hurdles, so at the end of the day you can play point guard.

Allen Fahden:  Absolutely.

Karla Nelson:  And so, yeah, so I think we’ve got that one covered, but that’s you and I.

Allen Fahden:  On the other end, let me give you the Shaker’s end of it, and that is the Shaker is the person who always says, I don’t care what idea it is that we run with, as long as it’s mine. So-

Karla Nelson:  Good point.

Allen Fahden:  … that it-

Karla Nelson:  So the Shaker loves the Mover because they never critique ideas, they just listen to them all, and then pick the idea that they like best, and it doesn’t matter.

Allen Fahden:  And you have a very good chance of it being implemented if a Mover likes it.

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that’s why we’re focusing on the Mover. If you’re a Mover, make sure you contact us, because we’re collecting all.

Allen Fahden:  Trying to collect the whole set.

Karla Nelson:  Okay, so our last combination here is the yellow light, which is the Mover and Prover. And, you know, I think I could-

Allen Fahden:  Yeah, please.

Karla Nelson:  … kind of speak to this one a little bit, being the Mover on our team, with this eight part series, Me, We, Us, and All. And covering the We, is we have three key individuals on our leadership team, a Mover, Shaker, and a Prover. Why? Because we could never have a leadership team that didn’t have those three.

Allen Fahden:  Right.

Karla Nelson:  Right? As soon as you get to implementing, that’s when you bring the Maker in. We need everyone. We don’t need them at the same time.

And one of the biggest challenges with the Mover-Prover, now it’s a yellow light, so the Mover loves the Prover, okay? We love our Shakers, and we love our Provers. However, what ends up happening is when you get to a specific part of the work, because you don’t always have to be in the same room at the same time as a Mover, you can get the ideas, and then you can say hey, this is specifically what’s wrong with it.

And what happens is on both sides, the challenge, and the problem, is they forget the overall strategy, because they are so focused into coming up with ideas, or how are we going to implement this, and what’s going to go wrong?

And so, the solution to the Mover-Prover, again, yellow light, they love to work together, but you’ve got to just have some caution around is, is that bring that Shaker back in. Run the process. Don’t allow yourself to go so far out of the process that the Shaker is thinking, what the heck? And the Prover is thinking, oh, this is just too much for me, and I can’t handle it.

So, ensure that if you’re in that caution zone, where you’re a Mover, and you’re having challenges, get everybody back in the room. Get that buy in from the entire team, otherwise, as a Mover, you’re going to be playing the devil’s advocate on both sides.

Allen Fahden:  Absolutely, and we’ve experienced that.

Karla Nelson:  You’re going to appreciate your Shaker, yeah, you got to appreciate your Prover, but, yeah.

Allen Fahden:  It’s like doing a reset. There’s got to be, said okay, now remember what we’re here for, and here’s where we are. It’s like reorienting the Shaker, reorienting the Prover, and that’s what-

Karla Nelson:  Yeah, because the Shaker’s going to be so far up high, and the Prover’s going to be lower on focusing on getting it done, and what will happen is the Mover will just be in the middle, versus working as a team to get something accomplished. So it’s not a red light, it’s not necessarily a green light, we’re talking about a yellow light. But it, all of these different lights are pretty critical to understanding how to We part of the Me, We, Us, and All, are coordinated.

Allen Fahden:  Yes, and what happens is that without the Mover, the Shaker and the Prover have no chance of fitting together. It’s all about how do people fit together. So the Mover has got a great responsibility, but gets great benefit out of it, of playing that middle role in making that … it’s kind of a dance, making sure that everybody, both the Shaker and the Prover, keep getting reoriented to, no, we’re not at that stage now. We’ll wait a little bit on that one, but I’m going to remind you that we’re going this, and this, and this. And that’s when it works beautifully.

Karla Nelson:  I love it.

Allen Fahden:  … you do it.

Karla Nelson:  It’s the WHO-DO dance.

Allen Fahden:  Do the WHO-DO dance.

Karla Nelson:  It’s the WHO-DO.

Allen Fahden:  Can you do the WHO-DO?

Karla Nelson:  Awesome. Can you do the WHO-DO? Awesome. So, thank you so much for joining us, and we hope you listen in on the Me part, which was a four part series. Here we went through We, and next we’ll be focusing on us, and then we’ll wrap it up with all. So, thank you-

Allen Fahden:  Thank you, Karla.

Karla Nelson:  … so much, Allen, for allowing me to interview you so that we can educate-

Allen Fahden:  It’s great fun, thanks.

Karla Nelson:  … our listeners. Thank you.

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